Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

No custody for DV as woman not "vulnerable"

233 replies

PandaPolar · 27/03/2017 11:13

"A Pakistani cricketer who beat his wife with his own bat and forced her to drink bleach while urging her to kill herself is set to join a top British club after being spared jail."

"But Bashir was spared jail at Manchester Crown Court, where the judge decided that he did not pass the custody threshold because his wife was not a vulnerable person."

What the actual fuck?

OP posts:
GardenGeek · 27/03/2017 21:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GardenGeek · 27/03/2017 21:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

jcsp · 27/03/2017 23:18

A crime is a crime however well the victim is/isn't educated, supported etc.

"An apparent defence claim, noted by the judge, that a prison sentence would have lost Bashir a contract with Leicestershire County Cricket Club has been rejected by the club, which denies any contact."

AND?

And it appears to be a lie as the cricket club denies any contract.

Not happy about this. Old man giving old men like me a bad name.

CP

Goldfishjane · 27/03/2017 23:23

" Old man giving old men like me a bad name"

Cos that's so fucking important.

I started a thread about in feminist chat. Hopefully enough of us will complain about the sentence and it will be changed.

pavlova71 · 28/03/2017 00:22

This is just so shocking.
Firstly, if the issue of her 'vulnerability' is related to the judges sentencing powers, then it exposes a disturbing gap in appropriate sentencing for such a violent and life-changing crime.
If it is just the judge's perception of her 'vulnerability' then it shows a complete lack of understanding of domestic violence, and should have no bearing on the sentencing. Her educational level, number of friends, language skills, colour of her fucking toenails is completely irrelevant. She is a VICTIM of violence, and all this does is perpetrate the myth, as her husband says, that it is her own fault that she has been abused.

And secondly, and I find even more unbelievably - WHAT THE FUCK DOES IT MATTER whether or not he was due to have a contract with a cricket team????????? Leicestershire or anywhere else? What if he was about to stand as an MP? What if was about to become a consultant surgeon? Or had been selected for the next space mission?
The status of the perpetrator's job prospects at the time he was arrested are completely irrelevant to the crimes that have committed and should have ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING BEARING on whether he gets a custodial sentence or not - even if he had been telling the truth about it - which it looks like he wasn't.
The message here should actually be - if you violently abuse your wife - whether she is a housewife or the next bloody prime minister, you DON'T get to keep your fucking job, and you DO lose a little bit more than 1000 quid.

DJBaggySmalls · 28/03/2017 00:26

He doesn't have a contract with LCC. So why hasn't be been dragged back to court for perjury?

noeffingidea · 28/03/2017 06:27

I don't understand why he wasn't charged with attempted murder, for forcing her to drink bleach.

Megatherium · 28/03/2017 07:05

jcsp, clearly no-one denies that this man committed a crime. The issue is the punishment for that crime.

pavlova, the problem seems to be not that there is a gap in sentencing, but that he was charged at too low a level. It is obviously appropriate that crimes be charged and sentenced differently according to their seriousness, and it isn't the judge's fault that this man wasn't charged with GBH.

DJBaggySmalls, perjury is lying under oath. What the barrister said in mitigation isn't evidence given under oath.

picklemepopcorn · 28/03/2017 07:41

JCSP is agreeing with you all I think.

prh47bridge · 28/03/2017 14:32

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this is repeating things that have already been said.

Bashir has not escaped jail due to the woman not being vulnerable. Indeed, the fact the judge concluded she was not particularly vulnerable has not affected the sentence at all.

Bashir was convicted of ABH according to reports.

Under the sentencing guidelines the judge first has to consider the level of harm. The reported remarks suggest that the injuries caused were not serious in the context of the offence (i.e. this was not close to GBH) and that this particular victim was not "particularly vulnerable" (the phrase used by the sentencing guidelines). There is, however, repeated assault on the same victim, so this falls into the higher level of harm. Note that some of those proclaiming outrage appear to be unaware that judges are required by the sentencing guidelines to separate the "particularly vulnerable" from those who are just vulnerable. If the judge did say, as reported, "I am not convinced she was a vulnerable person" that was wrong. However, if he said, "I am not convinced she was a particularly vulnerable person" that would be in line with the sentencing guidelines.

The judge next has to consider culpability. A weapon has been used so this falls into the higher culpability bracket. This means we are looking at a category 1 offence. It is clear from the sentence passed that the judge placed it in category 1 - the sentence would have been lower if it was category 2 or 3.

For a category 1 offence the sentencing range is 1-3 years custody with a starting point of 18 months. The judge must then look at aggravating and mitigating factors to determine the actual sentence. This appears to be a first conviction so that is a mitigating factor but there are clearly a number of aggravating factors present.

Bashir pleaded guilty so the sentence would be reduced by between 10% and one third depending on how early in the process he first pleaded guilty. The actual sentence was 18 months so the judge decided that the aggravating factors outweighed the mitigating factors. Before the discount for pleading guilty the sentence would have been 20 months, 24 months or 27 months - without knowing exactly when he first entered a guilty plea I can't say which.

So the actual sentence (ignoring the fact it is suspended) appears to be fairly normal for this particular offence.

As the sentence is under 2 years it is open to the judge to suspend it. This appears to have been a first offence which increases the likelihood that it would be suspended. The question is whether the alleged offer from Leicestershire played any part in the judge's decision to suspend. As that claim has fallen apart the judge could re-open sentencing. If he does not do so it is also possible that the CPS could appeal against the sentence. I doubt an appeal would change the length of the sentence significantly but it may reverse the decision to suspend it.

You may disagree with the sentencing guidelines but the judge has to follow them. The judge can only step outside the guidelines in particularly unusual cases. Sadly, this case does not qualify.

The sentence would have been higher if the offence had been GBH or attempted murder but the judge can only sentence the offender for the offence for which he has been convicted. It is not the judge's fault that Bashir was not charged with a more serious offence.

Toddlerteaplease · 28/03/2017 14:37

Leicestershire cricket club denied that they made him an offer. Interesting. Disgusting that he was let off.

Toddlerteaplease · 28/03/2017 14:38

Cross post

venusinscorpio · 28/03/2017 14:42

You may disagree with the sentencing guidelines but the judge has to follow them. The judge can only step outside the guidelines in particularly unusual cases. Sadly, this case does not qualify.

He didn't have to give a suspended sentence. I know you won't hear the legal profession being criticised and you think women get too emotional about these things from talking to you about other cases, but do you really think that was an appropriate decision? Really?

Goldfishjane · 28/03/2017 14:52

prh - thanks. What would be the "aggravating" factors though?

And from your understanding of the case, did the judge link the bleach, the pills and the hitting with the cricket bat?

My understanding is the cricket "job offer" did affect the judge's sentencing but I cannot see why that would be considered a good enough reason for a suspended sentence.

prh47bridge · 28/03/2017 15:07

I don't know what makes you think I won't hear the legal profession being criticised - I criticise it myself sometimes. And I certainly don't think women get too emotional about these things. No idea where you get that from.

I am surprised this sentence was suspended. It is unusual for a category 1 ABH sentence to be suspended. I suspect the reason it was suspended is the alleged contract with Leicestershire. That is a valid reason for suspending a sentence of less than 2 years and it is the only thing I've seen reported about this case that would justify suspension. I'm not saying another judge would have suspended the sentence but they would certainly have considered it. However, it is now clear that there is no career in county cricket awaiting Bashir so I think, based on what we now know, a suspended sentence is clearly inappropriate.

I am not a judge and I wasn't in court to hear the arguments but, based on the information reported, I doubt I would have suspended the sentence if it was my decision.

prh47bridge · 28/03/2017 15:23

What would be the "aggravating" factors though

The reports say the judge mentioned an ongoing effect on the victim. That is an aggravating factor. Without knowing all the evidence I can't say for sure what other aggravating factors were present but they could include:

  • location of the offence since I believe the offences happened at home
  • timing of the offence (not sure if this would apply)
  • gratuitous degradation of the victim
  • victim forced to leave home (not sure if she was)

There are a number of other things that could be aggravating factors but which don't appear to apply to this particular case.

And from your understanding of the case, did the judge link the bleach, the pills and the hitting with the cricket bat

I'm not sure what you mean by this. My understanding is that Bashir was charged with ABH for these incidents. That means he has repeatedly assaulted the same victim which moves it into the "greater harm" category for sentencing purposes. So the sentence is higher than it would have been if there was only a single incident.

I cannot see why that would be considered a good enough reason for a suspended sentence

The court was told that Leicestershire would withdraw their offer if Bashir went to prison. The argument is that he would be doubly punished if sent to prison in that, not only would he serve time, he would lose his chance at a career in cricket. Sending him to prison would therefore constitute worse punishment for him than it would for the average offender.

As I say in my post at 15:22, I doubt I would have suspended the sentence. But that is the reasoning behind this kind of decision.

Doyouwantabrew · 28/03/2017 15:29

Wouldn't someone forcing another to drink bleach be attempted murder?

Goldfishjane · 28/03/2017 15:41

thanks prh
looking at your listing, it seems even more astonishing to me that the sentence was suspended.

in terms of "extra punishment" because of a career option being removed, surely a lot of people would lose their jobs after being found guilty of ABH? I don't see that constitutes extra punishment.

whenever I look at the factors in any violent case, I get the sense that sentencing is looking for as many excuses as it can find in order to avoid imposing jail time.

There are so many things that need to be looked at in our systems. You can be jailed for carrying a knife, am I right? But if you hit someone with a cricket bat, try to force bleach down their throat, you aren't jailed? It's insanity.

The reason I asked if the judge treated those incidents as being linked is because I'm still utterly baffled how a string of violent incidents doesn't automatically constitute jail time. In terms of "first offence" there's more than one offence, but I'm thinking that if I hit my boyfriend with a cricket bat, I'd be jailed. Maybe I wouldn't?!

originalbiglymavis · 28/03/2017 15:43

Doyouwant - that's what I was going to ask.

Nasty woman hating, violent, racist creature. He really has not received what he deserved.

Goldfishjane · 28/03/2017 15:43

btw prh, your points are really helpful - I'm just amazed that things like "losing a career" can be considered "extra punishment" - there are natural consequences for which the court cannot and should not be held responsible. Losing a job, no matter how glamorous or lucrative - should be one of them.

venusinscorpio · 28/03/2017 15:50

And I certainly don't think women get too emotional about these things. No idea where you get that from.

From arguing with you about the use of sexual history testimony re Ched Evans. You didn't seem to grasp why women had concerns about it. But let's not derail the thread.

Given that you say you wouldn't yourself have suspended the sentence, you seem rather reluctant to allow the judge to be criticised. Legal decisions should be held up to scrutiny.

venusinscorpio · 28/03/2017 16:06

The Secret Barrister like the judge and many people, shows their total lack of understanding of DV.

prh47bridge · 28/03/2017 16:12

Losing a job, no matter how glamorous or lucrative - should be one of them

I agree.

Wouldn't someone forcing another to drink bleach be attempted murder

It could be but he wasn't charged with that. The judge can only sentence him for the crime of which he was convicted.

You didn't seem to grasp why women had concerns about it

On that thread I simply said that some of the concerns being expressed were misplaced. That does not mean I did not grasp why women had concerns. I did not share all of the concerns being expressed but I fully understood why people were concerned.

you seem rather reluctant to allow the judge to be criticised

Really? I'm not stopping anyone from criticising the judge. It is perfectly reasonable for people to say the judge was wrong to suspend the sentence. It is not reasonable to criticise the judge because Bashir was only charged with ABH (not the judge's decision) or for the fact that his crimes led to an 18-month sentence (in line with sentencing guidelines so the judge's hands are largely tied). But suspending a sentence for category 1 ABH is unusual and is the judge's decision, so no problem with people criticising the judge for that.

Blueskyrain · 28/03/2017 16:13

venusinscorpio, they show an understanding of the law, which from our rejection of them, you do not.

If you have an issue with how the judge interpreted the law, then I'd suggest you take the issue up with the sentencing council, who set the guidelines.