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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to continue having children? Despite knowing they all would have a life limiting condition.

253 replies

stripedeyesdown · 23/03/2017 14:19

I have named changed as i am probably going to get flamed for this.

I am a member of a Facebook group, i have just seen a post & a child of a member of this group has recently died.

It was noted on the message that this is their 3rd child, who has died from the same genetic life limiting condition.

They knowlingly went ahead with the following 2 pregnancies, knowing the children would be severely disabled with little quality of life.

AIBU to think that they have been selfish for a number of reasons, to continue having children knowing that each child would be born with this life limiting condition?

OP posts:
PoorYorick · 24/03/2017 11:56

Having kids is always selfish, if you're going to look at it that way. There are so many children in foster care, the truly altruistic thing to do is to adopt a child who already exists (especially an older one as there are more of them and it's harder to find adoptive families for them), has had a terrible start and will likely be challenging to raise. Are you going to berate people who want children who are theirs biologically?

ZebraOwl · 24/03/2017 12:00

So where is the cut-off for the eugenicists on this thread then? (Because yes, once you start deciding who has a "right" to be born, that's what you are: you are deciding that someone's life wouldn't be worth living. Nice.)

Should people with family histories of cancer & heart disease not be having children? Or is that ok because those issues will mostly happen in later life. People with asthma? And what about people with mental illnesses where there's known to be a pattern of inheritance, like anorexia, or schizophrenia? Surely, by your logic, it's selfish to take the risk of condemning their offspring to painful lives - and isn't protracted suffering worse than a short life? If we want to hit some REALLY contentious ground, what about the Ashkenazi Jews? They have horrifically high chances of things like cystic fibrosis, Tay-Sachs & Canavan Disease, a brutal thing that destroys brain tissue: www.webmd.com/children/tc/ashkenazi-jewish-genetic-panel-ajgp-what-are-ashkenazi-jewish-genetic-diseases

I don't know what it's like not to be in some degree of pain. It's my normal. Massive doses of powerful painkillers keep things bearable though. And it's my normal. It doesn't make the world a terrible place for/to me. Of course, my disabilities are far less severe than many - though how much they'll shorten my life depends on whether or not I have the Worst Subtype of my Syndrome rather than crossovers with it. Genetic testing has stalled again & tbh I'm not sure I want to know I could suddenly drop down dead: it would REALLY mess with getting travel insurance. My spine might never actually get round to paralysing me though: would starting a book be in bad taste? I have epilepsy & severe brittle asthma & assorted other bits of broken - & my parents had no idea any of it was coming. My beloved niece (who at 6y5m is almost 4 years past the life expectancy for children with her disability) is severely disabled because of the stage in her pregnancy my sister had gastroenteritis at - again, none of us were expecting it. And a friend's two longed-for children died from the same condition, unsuspected until the younger was a toddler.

So really, if we're trying to ensure no child suffers, nobody should have children. Any child can be born with, or later acquire, a disability. Or is there an acceptable level of risk? I can't have children, so is this statistic maybe on a handout parents are given? Does acceptability level vary by disability?

As a PP said, the disingenuousness of the title of this thread is really quite sickening. It will attract people with experience of this dilemma - the parents & families of these children; surviving siblings; close friends; and people with disabilities. It's a sensitive subject & the OP is showing rather less sensitivity than half a brick in a sock.

Also, again with the "childless-so-may-be-missing-something": aren't all parents choosing to have children for themselves? It's not some mad form of altruism, it's the desire to procreate. And when/where to do so & how many children to have is determined by the wishes of the parents mediated by external factors like age/income/domicile. Well in France you still get medals for having children, I suppose, but being motivated to collect those would be seriously weird - and still not Thinking Of The Child. I understand the logic of saying "I wouldn't have another child if they might have the same severe disability because I'd have concerns about my ability to provide care" or similar - but that's very different from the blanket "they're not thinking of the child". Thing is, they absolutely are. They've known & loved a child with the condition. They know what it means. And they're willing to risk losing a child to love them a while - how brave to knowingly & willingly face that kind of pain. They believe that those short lives are fruitful & of worth. And I don't really think anyone here has any business to suggest otherwise - how happy would you be to be told you shouldn't have had your child & their life was deemed worthless by people because they had (or lacked) certain physical characteristics?

(And so we're clear, while I'm Catholic, yes, I'm not on some big pro-Life kick here. Am meaning parents having right to TTC & to choose to continue pregnancies if they wish, iyswim? I totally understand that not everyone would feel able to, especially with disabilities incompatible with life & don't judge them for that: I can't imagine what a horrendous choice it must be to make, especially in the case of a longed-for & long-tried-for baby. But I very firmly believe parents shouldn't be judged for choosing to continue pregnancies if screenings identify disabilities/TTC when there's a [high] risk the baby will be [severely] disabled, either.)

Peonyfan · 24/03/2017 12:12

This thread has nothing to do with continuing with a pregnancy knowing that there is a disability (I have been in this position).
It's about knowing that you have a genetic condition that will be passed on and still choosing to conceive.

It's pretty obvious to me that there is a huge difference.
This is why sometimes the courts have to intervene when children are in ITU and the medics want to withdraw active treatment. Because some parents think that it is no one else's business.

Lots of us have experience in this situation, please don't think that one poster speaks for us all.

Jazzywazzydodah · 24/03/2017 12:33

pooryoric is spot on

MaisyPops · 24/03/2017 14:40

This thread has nothing to do with continuing with a pregnancy knowing that there is a disability (I have been in this position).
It's about knowing that you have a genetic condition that will be passed on and still choosing to conceive.
Exactly. Nobody is talking about trying to wipe out people with disabilities. Nobody is saying that a disabled child's life is worth less. Nobody is saying that a disabled person cant enjoy a good life. Nobody is daying a disabled child is loved or valued any less than a non-disabled child.

Lots of people are being very reflective and honest about how their decision might change depending on the likelihood of a condition, nature of the condition etc. Eg. If i was told i had a 90% chance that I carried a fictional condition where my child would only live a few months and would suffer throughout then I would choose not to have my own biological child.

It's a question about whether somebody chooses to create a new life when they hold certain pieces of information.

TheFirstMrsDV · 24/03/2017 15:19

It very much depends on what you consider 'quality of life' and if you think a short life is worth living doesn't it?

It is likely that they didn't know 100% that each child would have the same condition because its very rare to be that sure.
Its also likely that they didn't have a diagnosis for the first child by the time they had the second.

Devilishpyjamas · 24/03/2017 15:32

Yes what MrsDV said. There has been an assumption that a 'short painful life' is selfish to 'impose'. Which is why I asked for a definition of a short painful life.

MaisyPops · 24/03/2017 15:39

Devilishpyjamas
Im not a medical expert so wouldnt claim to have the knowledge required. Anyone on here who gives their view will get instantly shouted down as 'since when were you a dr?'
If a medical professional outlined their forecast and view then i would trust that.

TheFirstMrsDV · 24/03/2017 15:42

A medical professional is not always the best person to make that decision.
Medicine is about fixing things.
Some people cannot be 'fixed'
So that causes huge concern to some medical professionals and the assumption are made based on that.

They are not always wrong.
They are not always right.
Parents are not always right
They are not always wrong.

Things are just not that simple.

user838383 · 24/03/2017 15:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MaisyPops · 24/03/2017 15:50

I know that.
This is exactly why i wasnt going to get into a 'what would you count as...' debate.

I didnt say a medical person would make any decision at all. I didnt mention anything about anyone needing to be 'fixed' as that suggests i have an issue with disability... which i dont.

I dont like the idea of bringing a child into the world who will be in pain. If that makes me a bad person then fine.

I would consult medical opinions and square that with my own ethical position. You can disagree with me and thats also fine.
(But some of the posts on this thread are very much 'our child has a disability and they are loved. How can anyone not love a child for being disabled? How can you decide which life is worth value?' Because unless the answer is "yes i would definitely actively choose to risk passinb on a genetic condition or disability" its not going to be accepted.)

Devilishpyjamas · 24/03/2017 15:56

A medical opinion is the last opinion I'd seek about the value of my son's life or what it was likely to be like TBH.

dowhatnow · 24/03/2017 16:26

Its not just about childhood either. A severely disabled child may overall have a happy childhood surrounded by a loving family despite the pain, however its also about when they are older and have to cope with life in a difficult world, especially when parents are too old or are unable to continue caring for them. I am not saying that people in this situation don't have some quality of life but why on earth would you choose to conceive a child knowing that this lies ahead for them. It is different if the child is conceived not knowing about a genetic condition as is the case of several posters here.

TheFirstMrsDV · 24/03/2017 16:56

I didnt mention anything about anyone needing to be 'fixed' as that suggests i have an issue with disability... which i dont

I didn't suggest anything of the sort Confused

TheFirstMrsDV · 24/03/2017 17:00

but why on earth would you choose to conceive a child knowing that this lies ahead for them
People very rarely know what lies ahead of their children preconception. Even when they know there is a risk of disability.

Do you really think that we should accept poor care/provision to such an extent that we all decide not to give birth to a disabled child?

How about we all decide that disabled people have just as much right to the resources they need as temporarily non disabled people do?

We are all expensive and we all have complex needs.
Every single one of us.

dowhatnow · 24/03/2017 18:14

I wasn't looking at it from a financial point of view at all - merely from an emotional one. However now that you have mentioned it, that is a further factor to consider. Resources are unfortunately limited and choosing to bring a disabled child into the world would take those resources from another. Again it is the word choice that is the issue. Obviously in an ideal world there would be enough funds for everyones needs.

LouKout · 24/03/2017 18:19

Would take resources from another?

So others are more deserving?

Do you want to go down the route of thinking about the resources used by people with disabiities when deciding if they should exist?

I can think of a regime which did that and it was abhorrent. And its abhorrent to talk about who deserves resources more.

dowhatnow · 24/03/2017 18:20

And by that I am certainly not saying that disabled children should be terminated. In fact this financial argument doesn't really figure. It was you who bought it up.

dowhatnow · 24/03/2017 18:21

I wrote that before your post Lou. It is irrelevant to this argument.

LouKout · 24/03/2017 18:23

Sadly it does figure to some.

:(

Babyblues14 · 24/03/2017 18:25

if they can give the child a good life and care for them the way the child needs then I say go ahead. As long as you can love and look after your child that is all that matters. If she got pregnant by accident would you suggest she got rid of it??
Ridiculous post, keep your nose out of peoples business

PoorYorick · 24/03/2017 18:29

Resources are unfortunately limited and choosing to bring a disabled child into the world would take those resources from another.

I find this chilling.

PortiaCastis · 24/03/2017 18:32

Resources are unfortunately limited and choosing to bring a disabled child into the world would take those resources from another.

My God what a terrible thing to post

dowhatnow · 24/03/2017 18:42

You are picking up an argument which isn't relevant to this discussion. It never crossed my mind until a pp misinterpreted what I said.

PoorYorick · 24/03/2017 18:45

It's hugely relevant to the discussion. We're discussing conceiving a child whom you know will have a terminal illness and disability. If it's so irrelevant, why did you say it? And even if it is irrelevant, it's still chilling.

Don't you want to just say, "Oh hell. Now that I realise what I just said, I withdraw that comment and I'm ashamed of having made it"?

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