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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have concerns about Dsis moving into our jointly owned flat

100 replies

Etaina · 20/03/2017 19:24

Dsis and I inherited a house which is split into two flats and have been renting it out for 15 years now. We own it equally as tenants in common. She is selling her own house and now wants to move into the ground floor flat with her Dh. I expect she’ll buy a couple of houses to rent outright with the proceeds of the sale of her house. Dsis said that I can keep the rent from the upstairs. I said that I would like some time to think about it which didn’t go down too well. I don’t want to be obstructive or unreasonable, but I am worried that there could be disagreements further down the line. We’re both in our 50s and from what she’s said, I think she would like to stay there for forever. She doesn’t want us to transfer ownership of the flat to her name because of Capital Gains Tax, just to live there rent free. AIBU to have some reservations about this? I don’t even know exactly what I should be worried about. I just have a bad feeling that this arrangement could cause problems. E.g. she’s made it clear that she wouldn’t want Dh and I living upstairs at any point, so already seems unfair. Btw she could buy a flat in that location with the proceeds of her house sale but she would get more rental income by buying two properties in a cheaper place.

OP posts:
Original poster
Etaina · 20/03/2017 20:56

Offering the upstairs flat instead is a possibility but it still leaves potential problems. Years ago, I asked to move into the FF for 3 months between moves and she wouldn't allow it. Maybe she had the same concerns that I've got now.

OP posts:
Original poster
Etaina · 20/03/2017 20:58

Yes, maybe it would've been better to have sold it straight away, although it has gone up in value significantly in the last 15 years.

OP posts:
scottishdiem · 20/03/2017 21:01

"Offering the upstairs flat instead is a possibility but it still leaves potential problems. Years ago, I asked to move into the FF for 3 months between moves and she wouldn't allow it. "

She is being hypocritical.

You need firm legal advice before you do anything, regardless of what kind of mood your sister gets into.

loopylulu80 · 20/03/2017 21:02

Sounds like you need to speak to a solicitor independent of your sister. Sounds like she knows exactly what she is doing to get a good deal so you need to arm yourself with information.

I'm assuming you have to give the current tenant notice which means she can't move in immediately

MrsTwix · 20/03/2017 21:02

Not allowing you time to think, telling you what she is doing, not asking, telling you that you can't live there, choosing the easier to rent flat, none of this is reasonable behaviour, she has no right to call you unreasonable just because you want to think about things.

MrsTwix · 20/03/2017 21:03

If the current tenant is a good one think carefully before giving them notice.

RunRabbitRunRabbit · 20/03/2017 21:04

Oh dear. Screaming and storming out. Well that puts a different spin on it. Do not under any circumstances let her live there without buying you out first. You will end up like those brothers in court.

Get as far away as possible. There is always going to be CGT. The way taxation is going, CGT is likely to go up in future years, especially on second homes. Get out now. Offer her a buy out.

Slackdad01 · 20/03/2017 21:04

If you own and investment of any kind cgt is inevitable. There are only 2 certainties in life, death and taxes. Even if you continue to r
Let the property out there is tax to pay. And let's be a bit brutal here, your sister is the one who is being unreasonable.
It is not a fair request, for her to live rent free in a property which is jointly owned by you both whole she imperiously dictates you may not do the same in the property which you also jointly own? And that you may have whatever rent comes from the harder to let flat which is worth less each month?
Sorry to be harsh (and flame away) but that's not the behavior of someone with a balanced sense of fairness
If it were my brother I'd say he was behaving in a spoiled fashion.
Also, we're she to buy you out (cut or no) the only fair way if dispersing is to have the flats valued as separate properties in which you each have a 50% stake, your sister can then buy you out of the more valuable GF flat leaving both of you with a residual rental income from the FF flat, which means that she has an equal amount of work in the management and letting of the property.
I'm only this brutal because I've been burned by family in property and money issues previously. I tend to take a zero tolerance policy and family pulling bullshit these days

ImperialBlether · 20/03/2017 21:04

I think women like her get worse as they get older (at the risk of being shot down in flames.) I'd sell up now.

WhataHexIgotinto · 20/03/2017 21:06

No way would I be happy about this. It does seem that your sister calls the shots and you're supposed to just go along with it. I would not have that at all.

RandomMess · 20/03/2017 21:06

I really think you just say no, if you want to live in it we sell the property.

Original poster
Etaina · 20/03/2017 21:07

I'd feel terrible about giving the current tenant notice because he and his family are such wonderful people and they love living there.

I'm pleased that MNers share my concerns. She made me feel terribly selfish just for asking for time to think about it.

OP posts:
RandomMess · 20/03/2017 21:16

Well she buys the bottom flat then and you keep the top one, get them valued separately and she pays the difference in value IYSWIM or you sell them as a pair with a tenant in situ if someone wants it as a buy to let?

Trifleorbust · 20/03/2017 21:26

I would just explain to her, if she doesn't want to see you disadvantaged (which of course she wouldn't!) she would happily take joint legal advice.

Original poster
Etaina · 20/03/2017 21:47

Slackdad I hadn't considered her buying me out of the GF but both hanging onto the FF. I wonder if that could work?

As suggested, I could say that we should both pay for legal advice (and perhaps advice from an accountant too?). She won't be happy about that though.

OP posts:
Trifleorbust · 20/03/2017 21:53

Well if she isn't happy about legal advice then there is something rotten in the state of Denmark, OP. People who believe their proposal is cost-neutral or better for the other party don't balk at legal advice!

EatsShitAndLeaves · 20/03/2017 22:02

She's effective asking you to reduce your rental income by "giving" you the less attractive flat that my not be be rented all the time.

You are also being expected to continue to pay 50% of the maintenance.

That's not equitable.

If she wants to move in then she should pay the going rate of rent and continue to half that with you across both properties.

She's being selfish and unreasonable and her reaction suggests she knows it. What's worse is she prevented you doing the same - even temporarily- on a previous occasion.

You need to tell her no, the arrangement doesn't work for you.

Get legal advice asap.

Slackdad01 · 20/03/2017 22:03

Well, if she genuinely wants somewhere to live it might give a way out that means you aren't being diddled and for your sister she would be getting g the flat at half the market value because she'd only be buying g your half, again for that to work though both flats would need to be valued as separate concerns, so legal advice is a must! And as Trifle said, if she's leary of that then something is seriously amiss and she is out to g her gain ahead of your relationship (again I know I'm being brutal but some people genuinely go a bit mad when property and money is involved)

CouldntMakeThisShitUp · 20/03/2017 22:08

If you 'own' the flat there is no way she can 'not allow' you to live there. It's ok for her to move in without discussion but not you?

I think it's about time you stood up to her and got legal help to sort this out.

You also don't HAVE to give the GFF tenant notice until all this is sorted out.

What would her reaction be if you did the same?
Exactly - so don't let her treat you like a doormat.

Original poster
Etaina · 20/03/2017 22:14

That's very true actually. There's no way she'd allow it.

OP posts:
khajiit13 · 20/03/2017 22:15

If she pushes ahead with this you need a proper contract and to have it all in writing. I'd be insisting that you receive 50% rent from each flat and that maintenance in both flats is still 50% each.

Original poster
Etaina · 20/03/2017 22:20

Yes I hadn't even thought about the 50% rent from each flat and shared maintenance That makes total sense.

The more I think about it though, the more I realise that she wouldn't even consider such an arrangement if I were to suggest it. She wouldn't even let me move in for 3 months between moves, let alone permanently.

All of your responses have been so helpful because she was so nasty to me when I said I needed to think about it and she said some horrible things. Now I realise that she was trying to pressurise me into quickly agreeing to something that would only be an advantage for her.

OP posts:
CouldntMakeThisShitUp · 20/03/2017 22:21

How can she not 'allow' it? Confused

Would she physically barricade the property?
How can she just move in but you can't?

Have you always been bullied by her?

altiara · 20/03/2017 22:21

No! She cannot make all of these demands. See a solicitor. If she huffs, puffs, screams etc ignore her, you need to protect your money not give it to your sister (who doesn't appear to care much about you)

SuperDandy · 20/03/2017 22:41

Oh my. I've been burned badly by this sort of scenario. Do not, repeat do not, allow your goodwill towards a family member get the better of your common sense.

My sibling took advantage of my goodwill. I was put in a position of either rolling over like a total doormat and losing even more money or insisting on being paid the money I was owed. Either way, the relationship was fucked.

If you let her have her way you will rightly resent it. If you stand up for yourself she will get the hump and then some. I'm sorry to be the voice of doom, but this sort of shared inheritance of property has a nasty tendency of fucking up sibling relationships.

Damage limitation all the way. Get legal advice and protect your share of the assets. I didn't and lost my self respect, a whole lot of money and my sibling still got the arsehole with me anyway because what they wanted was absolutely unreasonable and not going to happen. All the effort I out in to retaining their goodwill by being over-generous was for nothing.