To get annoyed when dd(6) learns about Christianity?

[MooPointCowsOpinion]

She is at a non-religious, normal state primary. She is the type of kid who remembers everything she's told and parrots it back, so I hear about her entire day every day at school. Almost every day she tells me they sang this song about Jesus, learnt that story about Jesus, learnt this lesson about Christianity. Every assembly they sing a Christian song.

I am an atheist. I don't want her to learn just about Christianity, all religions are important in a 'this is what some people believe' kind of way but I feel like they're indoctrinating her into Christianity by pushing it so much. I try to counter it by teaching her other religious beliefs and telling her my beliefs, but I know the steady drip drip of information could plant a seed that could lead to what I would consider radicalisation.

I've brought it up with her teacher, she's sympathetic and has given us the option to opt-out but I'd hate for her to feel singled out and to miss important things in assemblies.

Does/did it bother you? AIBU to be annoyed?

it brings so much richness and freedom and joy to my life

Can you build on that? What do you mean by 'richness' 'freedom and 'joy' because I feel those things when I play with my daughter, when I finish a personal project or look after my husband when he's had a hard day at work by cooking him his favourite meal or when I buy just the right gift for someone.

And I reject religion, in fact, I despise the god of the Qur'an, Torah and bible.

As for hell, I reject the traditional idea of hell and believe it to be highly unbiblical. I believe God is love, and the idea of eternal conscious torment is so far from the God I know I can't begin to get my head round why people have adopted a mediaeval idea which sought to control the masses and extort money from peasants.

You can't grasp the idea of a 'hell', but think God is one of love? How did you come to that conclusion? The bible shows god to be vindictive and cruel, the world around us has shown much suffering at times. If that's love, it's a rather twisted kind. If you are talking about love (as in the emotion) made physical, that has no relation to the supernatural. We are not the only creatures to feel love, and express it. It doesn't come 'from above'. It's a mixture of our own biology and chemistry working to cause emotion. Literature has much to answer for with the idea of heaven and hell, but also with the notion of 'feeling from the heart' to replace describing normal biological functions. You accept hell was created to scare and control the masses, but not the idea of God itself?

I get joy from all of those kinds of things, Ollie, every day, but the joy I am speaking of has a different quality. I think it was C.S Lewis who described it as 'joy unspeakable,' something at the core of my deepest being. The problem is, it's really difficult to describe, thence falling into Edmund's well pointed out trap of just saying 'I feel God so I believe.' But if I could describe it it would take poetry, and the feeling is perhaps more akin to a beautiful symphony or stunning art or an incredible view, yet deeper still. The richness and freedom that underlie Christian life are to do with the sense of hope and wholeness, the sense that in worship you are the person you were made to be. Many times I have encountered God as an assurance over me, in struggling in self-esteem as a teenager, in worry as a young mum, in battling lifelong chronic illness, and have found that God has set me free from anything that has kept me captive, if you like.
I can't really explain more than that, but this is not some airy fairy thing with a few pleasant feelings, I could get those smoking a bit of weed, but is something much more whole, bringing together mind, body and spirit in the sense that I am loved by God.

Nobody should be telling children that any of those are necessarily true

Nobody teaching should give any indication that religion is true. It should be taught as factually as possible, without ever giving indication that it is a truth. It is not a difficult thing to do. Obviously some children in class with be growing up with religion outside of the home, and yes discussing beliefs and customs is a valid way of learning. But actively praying to god is too far, actively saying 'Jesus died for us' is wrong, as it isn't an actual event that historically happened. That's for church, not school.

Oh heck I really must get back to work. This thread is too interesting :)

Edmund, I really like this book as an answer to your question, hope you don't mind me posting a link and running but really have to go...

Love Wins

Not comprehensive and don't agree with it all, but I rarely do ;)

sorry, back later

Madhairday, I really dislike an argument that's basically 'you couldn't possibly feel like I do, my love/sadness/anger etc completely overrides yours'. Those emotions comes from being human, we all feel them, even without god, very intensely at times. The scale of emotion isn't 'one up' for those who believe, but many a believer can tap into that extra stash of endorphins when needs be it seems. I feel the same way as you, believe it if not, but without god in any way.

but this is not some airy fairy thing with a few pleasant feelings, I could get those smoking a bit of weed, but is something much more whole, bringing together mind, body and spirit in the sense that I am loved by God.

Have you ever smoked weed? Or taken substance known to create euphoria?

Why doesn't god heal your chronic illness, or better still- why give it to you in the first place?

And you must except that people who do not have faith feel things just as strongly as you do when they look at a breath taking view or they weep at a painting?

God has set me free from anything that has kept me captive, if you like.

You can do this easily with other means, like hypnotherapy, effective placebo ect. What you are doing is using 'god' as a way of asking yourself 'what if this wasn't a problem anymore?' And by doing so you give yourself permission to be self confident, optimistic and resourceful. I imagine its even easier to do if the nagging sense of your own mortality is lifted from you.

Nope, still not seeing any point to religion in schools. Plenty of other countries manage without it and if you want your kids to learn about it take 'em on a tour of the local churches and mosques. That time in school could be put to so much better use.

Learning about religions is important as there are many people who follow such religions so it does give an insight into how people think.

However - there are some great stories used to show the positives and morals. Each religion - as well as cultures - have interesting stories about behaviour.

But...each religion and culture also has stories used to control people. To keep them in line. To warn them about the negatives of not following God's rules.

Schools don't seem to use those stories, do they? There are loads of stories from the Old Testament about how God punished people and killed people for not following the rules.

Maybe schools should tell these stories. Put the fear of God into people.

But Old Testament God doesn't get a look in. People who say God is love seem to ignore the wrath of God. The vengeance of God.

Why?

Sorry Ollie, what searching question have I ignored?

I do find the assumption that science trumps God to be an interesting one. In our congregation we have medical doctors and research scientists with PhDs, people so much more intelligent than I am that they really have to reach down sometimes to explain the concepts they're working on.

A not insignificant number of them started out atheists, and found science drew them to God.

CS Lewis started out atheist; in fact his first published work is a volume of atheist poetry.

I suppose one difference between us is the different interpretation we put on things. Can't remember which neuroscientist came up with the "God shaped hole" in the brain; a spot which seems to be designed to either promote or respond to worship type stuff.

One friend heard about that, and her response was "well that explains away religious experience then," whereas my reaction was closer to "how cool, awesome idea, God."

It's just such a fundamentally different view of the world. You say I cannot possibly know that there is a God. I say that I know God, and I am his friend and he is mine.

I give examples from my own experience; you (generic you, not any particular individual) believe I am with confused, mentally ill, hysterical, over imaginative, lying or deluded.

You tell me I wouldn't believe if awful things have happened. I tell you how God was still there when awful things did happen. You tell me I'm clinging to some kind of mistaken belief due to the awful things that have happened - I can't win!

I cling to God because he's God, He's good, and I love him. It's not about the emotions, it's not about the crutch, it's not about building some complex archaic belief system through fear or loss or anything else.

It's Jesus stretching out a hand, saying "Will you follow me?" And me saying "yes."

Strength for today, bright hope for tomorrow. Not in some hypothetical formulaic rule bound way, but in the presence of my saviour and my friend. The presence of God, not merely the existence.

I'm sorry that's unscientific. But if you want to debate with actual scientists, these people might be more useful perhaps? www.cis.org.uk/

I do find the assumption that science trumps God to be an interesting one Science doesn't even hint that it trumps religion. The two are describing completely different things. Science is the most successful tool we have developed to describe the natural universe. Religion tries to describe something beyond the natural universe. Science has nothing to say about what is beyond the universe. Whether or not religion has any success what-so-ever at accurately describing the supernatural is unknown because there are no tools to test anything supernatural.

In our congregation we have medical doctors and research scientists with PhDs The human brain is very capable at compartmentalising. The argument from authority is well traveled ground

God shaped hole in the brain I think someone has misunderstood. Neuroscience has proved that their is NO god shaped hole in our brain.

Science is the most successful tool we have developed to describe the natural universe. Religion tries to describe something beyond the natural universe. Science has nothing to say about what is beyond the universe.
As a religious person who believes in science and evolution, this this this.
They are not mutually exclusive unless someone is extremely "science proves my atheism" or extreme conservative religious people who think science is from satan (neither are good perspectives)

He's good, and I love him

Is this Old Testament God or New Testament God?

The same God, it all fits together

Well, these ones:

But do you consider it disturbing to still consider this being a friend, a protector, a comfort, a guardian, when you know they could have saved your child? God is all powerful, all knowing, why did he not intervene?

And

According to the bible, god was capable of creating the entire universe in just seven days. If he is unhappy with the way things are, WHY DOESNT HE JUST SORT IT OUT?

And
Why 'set a plan in motion' that involves us all dying at the end of it....why not just snap his celestial fingers and put us all back to utopia again, with no knowledge of good or evil?

The same God, it all fits together

How woodhill? How does it all fit together?

On core beliefs and why its hard to change them

JustAnotherPoster
That is a very good explanation of why religion in schools is so dangerous and it brings the discussion right back to the original post.
The background noise of signing hymns, iconography on walls and religious assemblies all subtly help to build/reinforce core beliefs that become very hard if not impossible to overcome later in life.

Ollie.

To answer points 2 and 3, he is a God who believes in free will. He made us, he could have made us all built to love him and conditioned for total obedience no matter what. But instead he made us a little lower than the Angels, and in his image, male and female. He gave us free will, it's up to us to choose to believe, or not believe, it's up to us to follow him or not, to make good or bad decisions.

Wars, arguments, murders, foetal alcohol syndrome, abuse, climate change, man-influenced "natural" disasters; it's all down to us. Not God.

If you believe Genesis is literal rather than a description and a guide, then he's already pretty much wiped us out once, and then promised never to do that again (Noah and the flood).

Instead, he sent his son down, to explain it all over again, God made vulnerable as a helpless baby, God made human and irritating enough to those in power that he was killed all over again. And in doing so, paid the death-price for all of us, forever. And so we are now living in the between times, in the time where God's grace and mercy have been poured out and are available to anyone who wants them. But before he has come back in power to wrap this whole thing up.

I can't explain the natural disasters which have happened without reference to man, except to say that this is a broken, imperfect world.

I don't think his plan involves us all dying in the end - it involves the hope of Life, eternal life, for everyone. They very opposite of death.

Point 1. Yes, he could have stepped in. And no he didn't. And no, I don't believe it's ever in his plan for parents to outlive their children. But children do die. Sometimes directly as a result of something visibly human - active malice, murder, etc. Sometimes as a result of human weaknesses and errors - medical errors, illnesses caused by man (pollution based asthma, deliberate exposure to noxious substances, car crashes, that kind of thing). And sometimes due to these flaws in creation which are a part of this world being broken. I don't know why or how he can look on at so much suffering. But I do know that he hasn't turned his back on it, that he feels it as deeply and as intensely as we do, probably more so since he doesn't have the ability to switch off the news and pretend it isn't happening.

And I know that my child is fully healed, fully restored, fully beautiful and while and perfect now. I know that we will meet again. I know that there is no more pain for my child - and I know that they were more than ready to be free of that pain.

SilenceOfthePrams: "He made us, he could have made us all built to love him and conditioned for total obedience no matter what. But instead he made us a little lower than the Angels, and in his image, male and female."

Do you think so? You don't accept evolution through natural selection as an accurate account of how humans came into existence?

So he 'made' us with free will, but there are consequences if we don't believe in him. We make our own mistakes that 'make him sad', but he chooses not to interfere in any way. He doesn't show himself in any way, doesn't give any indication that he's around, but we're expected to believe he exists. There are flaws in creation, but that's not his fault (although he allegedly created all of it), but god doesn't make mistakes. Not all death and hurt in this world is due to human fault. How do you explain genetic illness? What on earth is the point of an amazing, supposedly all powerful deity that does nothing?

And why is 'eternal life' the ultimate goal? Some people don't want to 'live forever'. The idea just stems from self-aware humans being unable to comprehend not existing anymore. Our existence is in our minds, worked by our brain. Once our brains stop working, we stop being ourselves - like switching off a computer.

Hackmum I think God used evolution to make us. But that's just what I think. I suppose I swing towards intelligent design/guided design as a theory. I'm not a 7 day creationist/young earther. And that's my thoughts, not something I hang my life on.

Edmund. I don't believe he does nothing. I do believe he shows himself to us. He gives me indications all the time that he's around.

He's not some theory I choose to believe in, he's my friend. My king. My brother. My Lord. Not a series of things I try to think nice thoughts about but someone I know and spend time with.

I'm sorry I can't explain things any better than that.

I don't have all the answers. And I know this is probably going to sound like a get out, but I don't need all the answers. At the moment, I exist in time, at this moment in time. God exists outside of time, he set the Big Bang in motion and he'll be around when whatever the opposite of that happens and everything draws to a close. And he already knows exactly what that looks like. To quote King David, such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to understand. I dont need all the answers; it's enough for me to know and trust the one who does have them all.

He knows my future, my past, my present. He knows exactly how many times I'll mess up, and he loves me anyway.

Eternal life - personally, yes I believe we have souls and those souls are eternal. I believe there's a place for anyone who wants it in heaven, that we will all be resurrected one day into new and perfect bodies. If we want to be.

Some people believe there's a hell in addition to heaven, and that some people will be there for all eternity. Others believe hell is simply a permanent separation from God - some would say that's simply people deciding no, they don't want eternity.

I don't think God is likely to force anyone to live forever against their wishes. He wants people to choose life, but he gives us the choice.

I'm not an expert. I'm not a theologian. I don't run my life according to principles guided by a working theoretical hypothesis. I just try to follow Jesus wherever he takes me, whether or not it makes much sense at the time. I've found it brings me great joy, and peace beyond understanding.

In fact I think that's key. It is the peace of God, beyond all understanding. I can't explain it, because I can't understand it. i just live it. Sorry.

Sorry, Silence, but that does read like a cop-out to me. Sounds very much like you're picking and choosing what you'd like to believe about god - for example your ideology that god 'set about the Big Bang' doesn't correlate with either religious or scientific literature. You seem to be deliberately choosing to ignore all the horrible things the biblical god has done and still insist it is a deity of love, which biblical scriptures tell otherwise. If you chose to believe in Jesus and the Christianity ideology, it is not for you to decide which bits you decide are true or not, and put your own narrative into it. Otherwise you're not actually following Jesus and God, just your own version of these figurative characters.

God might be all about choice but religion certainly isn't!

Imagine if Thor was so ingrained in our culture that we still refer to the 4 th day of week in his honour ! And Odin the 3rd day and Freya for the 5th ?

For those christians who object to atheists celebrating "Christmas" do you have a special Christian name for those days of the week?

In millennia will a secularised world having forgotten christianity come to think that the winter celebrations were in honour of some bloke called Chris ???