To get annoyed when dd(6) learns about Christianity?

[MooPointCowsOpinion]

She is at a non-religious, normal state primary. She is the type of kid who remembers everything she's told and parrots it back, so I hear about her entire day every day at school. Almost every day she tells me they sang this song about Jesus, learnt that story about Jesus, learnt this lesson about Christianity. Every assembly they sing a Christian song.

I am an atheist. I don't want her to learn just about Christianity, all religions are important in a 'this is what some people believe' kind of way but I feel like they're indoctrinating her into Christianity by pushing it so much. I try to counter it by teaching her other religious beliefs and telling her my beliefs, but I know the steady drip drip of information could plant a seed that could lead to what I would consider radicalisation.

I've brought it up with her teacher, she's sympathetic and has given us the option to opt-out but I'd hate for her to feel singled out and to miss important things in assemblies.

Does/did it bother you? AIBU to be annoyed?

I love it when the local parents after going to church for 3 years so that their kids get into the very over subscribed faith school, complain bitterly on their dc's behalf about the compulsory RE GCSE and how funny that my kids who were brought up atheist have chosen to take RE. According to the faith school, the kids who have a strong faith struggle most with RE, they struggle to critique their own religion.

Because of the school system we have, lots of parents have to pretend to believe in a deity and go to a church just to get their children into their local school. And when there they rightly try to change the system from within by complaining about the religious education.

If we kept religion out of school then we would avoid all this nonsense.

Children who have been brought up by atheist parents are often likely to do GCSE RE because they are actually interested in developing their ethics and thinking. The full title being RE, Philosophy and Ethics.

Children who have been brought up by theist parents often struggle with RE because it teaches ethics and thinking which is anathema to most religions. Christianity for example are supposed to obey Gods morality not develop their own. Muslims for example are not allowed to countenance other gods.

About faith schools, rather than the worship that is required in all state schools, but [[https://faithschoolersanonymous.uk/2017/03/im-a-vicar-and-the-governor-of-a-church-school-and-i-know-that-faith-schools-are-wrong/]] is an interesting read - a vicar on why he disagrees with faith schools.

[[https://faithschoolersanonymous.uk/2017/03/im-a-vicar-and-the-governor-of-a-church-school-and-i-know-that-faith-schools-are-wrong/]]

The fuck?

faithschoolersanonymous.uk/2017/03/im-a-vicar-and-the-governor-of-a-church-school-and-i-know-that-faith-schools-are-wrong/

How beautiful that they encourage children to know about God and Jesus 😊

Insidious, divisive and ugly, when it is done either without the knowledge of the parents or against their wishes and beliefs.

I'm stuck. My only choices for a school for my children were the CofE one nearest to us (which is usually massively oversubscribed, but had a poor Ofsted which saw many far-distant parents who had previously insisted they needed a faith education for their children magically revisit their priorities) or a failing undersubscribed faith school that is half an hour's drive away.

DS1 (5) came home yesterday full of the Easter story which is 'true, Mummy, it's not just some people who believe it.'

This is the next 10 years for us, unless we win the lottery and can afford to go private.

Edmund, please don't feel sorry for people like me. Faith is a liberating force in my life, not an oppressive one. It infuses life with hope and freedom, and this isn't because I have made a decision to close my mind against reason and rationality; on the contrary, these are important to me and to ignore them - to shut down my brain - would be anathema to me.

However I have much empathy for your point of view because I too like things to be measurable and provable, and when it comes to faith this isn't always possible, hence debates between Christians and atheists tending to go in the same circles and neither one conceding - and fair enough. Believers have their experience of God which is undeniable to them but unquantifiable to others, people who don't believe have reasoned out why there can't possibly be a God behind it all. Manu believers also use their reason and intellectual abilities to understand their faith, but it's unusual that middle ground can be found.

Still, the debate is interesting and encouraging when carried out with respect from both sides.

With regard to OP, I'm always confused when I hear of schools teaching any religion as fact. I've worked in and been around many schools, faith and not, and never come across this. My dh who is a vicar does assemblies and is always careful to caveat what he is saying with 'Christians believe that...' and doesn't frame anything as forcing children to pray - just invites them to have a thinking moment (perhaps about being kind, or helping others or being thankful etc). That's my experience of collective worship but I guess there must be places which are more forceful - telling children they're naughty for not praying is just hideous.

Great posts, Prams and Broomstick

Anon - my DD has been brought up by Christian parents and is relishing her GCSE RE - she loves the debate and the philosophy aspects, is predicted A* and planning to do RE A Level. We have brought her up to think widely and critically, to question her faith and qualify it with comprehensive knowledge.

Madhair that sounds like a great way for your dh to do things and I totally agree with what you are saying about faith. It can be very discouraging on threads like this.

Madhairday, I really do try not to give the slightest jolt what people choose to believe, but ultimately it is a delusion, and I can't help feeling sorry for those who buy into it. I feel sorry for anyone who cannot be content with the world around them, that can accept that this is us and our world, good and bad, without a need to lean on a man made god for emotional sustenance.

Of course, religion is an idealism that people feel bring them hope, but that doesn't sit right with me. People have allowed their own imagination run away with them, or not questioned their families belief systems, even though it's as clear as day that there is no higher power of the godlike, creator kind. It's isn't that 'it isn't always possible' to prove a god. It's never been proved. As the wonderful Tim Minchin said 'no mystery ever solved in this world ever turned out to be magic'. If everything we didn't understand in this world thus far has turned out to be not god, I'm hedging my bets that anything considered 'a miracle' or beyond our current understanding is also not divine.

Millions of years on this earth, and not one bit of evidence of a God, except human imagination. Says a lot.

All those of you who are saying "we sang hymns at school and it was fine, I'm an atheist", well what the fuck was the point in it then? Wouldn't those wasted hours have been better spent on something marginally useful?

But i loved the hymns and love them still.

My son loves singing Christmas carols and playing the in the school band. (They don't do hymns for the rest of the year but brain washing songs about how to be a model citizen in the current era!)

Meh. You'd get the same enjoyment from collective singing of the Beatles back catalogue and playing the Pink Panther theme tune in band.

If you love hymns and all that, I'm sure a church would be more than accommodating for whoever wants to join in. Still not a reason to have hymns, praises, preaching in schools. I wouldn't go into a church and give a talk on scientific studies every Sunday. That would be intrusive and unwelcomed.

Edmund you are responding to a post that wasn't written and appear rather rude.

My comment was to the poster who said it was a waste of my time as a child. Nothing to do with my child now.

I think some of the old hymns and carols are far better than your musical suggestions spin. Meh indeed..

WhatWouldKeanuDo, in what way am I being rude? I didn't even acknowledge you in my previous post, you're not the only poster who says they enjoyed the hymns. Genuinely wondering why those who love the songs and such so much dont make use out of the church. There's absolutely no need for it to be in schools.

I quite like the sound of your scientific studies Edmund.

woodhill, yes but would you like atheist-leaning science talks taking up time in your church every week? Would you like if I insisted you did atheists based work, put on a play once or twice a year celebrating the life of Richard Dawkins? Would you be happy for your children to be involved in that, honestly? Or would you be a bit cross, thinking that a place of worship is a safe-haven for faith and belief beyond what can be seen and tested, and should not be imposed on by those with complete opposite ideologies? Very genuinely question, the whole shoe-other-foot scenario.

I wouldn't go into a church and give a talk on scientific studies every Sunday. That would be intrusive and unwelcomed.

Every Sunday and during the service, yes. Once a month, before or after the service, you would probably be very welcome. Lots of churches have schemes where scientists come to give talks, and clergy shadow scientific researchers in their labs. Of course, in plenty of churches there are quite a few scientists in the congregation, so you'd have to do quite a good talk to be engaging to everyone from the children and the people who left school with few qualifications to the professor of chemistry.

Would the talks be about science or atheism, Edmund. Because those are not at all the same thing.

Fair point Edmund but you would still be welcome and do what the previous poster suggested.

Edmund, all I can say is that I have questioned my family's belief, and my own, and yet still come to the point of faith. I've thought very carefully about whether I am allowing myself to be deluded, brainwashed or similar, and reading books like The God Delusion haven't convinced me otherwise, or in fact those of more learned theology scholars. You're right to say there isn't quantifiable proof we can point at and say 'ah, that proves it beyond doubt,' but there isn't quantifiable doubt either. Saying that I am not a fan of the god-of-the-gaps argument and prefer to wonder at what I believe to be God's design through looking at science and being amazed at discoveries we make.

I'm really glad you're content with the world around you, contentment is hard to find and it's great when people can come to that place. I don't think I am leaning on a man-made god in order to feel better about things; my faith doesn't promise that suddenly everything will be made better for me and I'll feel happy. Far from it. It's more of an understanding of the whole story, a glimpse of the power and the beauty behind it all, and the justice which we all yearn for in every human story I believe will happen. I cannot be content with the world the way it is because it is shit, screwed up, although glimmers of hope and goodness encourage and inspire me everyday.

I hope I am honest enough with myself not to be dragged into delusion. I'm really very rational, I see through fallacies quickly and don't allow myself to be drawn into mythical and farcical tales, because I value my reason. However, my experience of God is grounded in reality for me, experience of transformation and hope and peace which belies understanding.

I'm more than aware this is not enough - it's one random on the internet saying 'I feel God's presence' - but it's what I can offer. It's my life's experience, through darkness and light, doubt and fear, always returning to the truth I hold dear.

Saying that, I don't think school is ever a place for people to tell others what to believe, particularly children. They should be taught about religions, not told one as true, for they need to make up their own minds. They'd be better teaching use of critical faculties, and told that these are all things people believe, and they can explore them for themselves if they want to, or not.

I love to talk science in church, one church I knew did a sermon series on science and faith. I like to hear both sides, if it's a case of an atheist and a Christian talking about science, be challenged and come to my own thoughtful position.

Also, the school/church comparison doesn't work. A school isn't and shouldn't be a safe haven for atheism. It should be an inclusive place of learning, where everyone including atheists and people of faith, are able to express their views, learn about alternative world views, be valued parts of the community who all get to play a full part in the life of the school.

This isn't the case in many UK schools at the moment, and I think it's a shame.

I actually started off reading this thread as a Christian who believed in a greater separation between church and state. But I'm starting to change my mind, and think that actually, there should be more discussion and participation in religious matters rather than less, but that atheism, humanism, and minor religions should be included too. That might prevent toouch fundamentalism and zealous converts, and generally increase understanding. Plus, it would be fun to have a school Beltane celebration, and I like the idea of atheist songs in assembly. I did used to go a Unitarian church where there were some pretty good hymns about the importance of reason and the scientific method which I thinkight appeal to Edmund.

Sorry about the typos. My phone is ancient and so slow that the words appear long after I've typed them.