To get annoyed when dd(6) learns about Christianity?

[MooPointCowsOpinion]

She is at a non-religious, normal state primary. She is the type of kid who remembers everything she's told and parrots it back, so I hear about her entire day every day at school. Almost every day she tells me they sang this song about Jesus, learnt that story about Jesus, learnt this lesson about Christianity. Every assembly they sing a Christian song.

I am an atheist. I don't want her to learn just about Christianity, all religions are important in a 'this is what some people believe' kind of way but I feel like they're indoctrinating her into Christianity by pushing it so much. I try to counter it by teaching her other religious beliefs and telling her my beliefs, but I know the steady drip drip of information could plant a seed that could lead to what I would consider radicalisation.

I've brought it up with her teacher, she's sympathetic and has given us the option to opt-out but I'd hate for her to feel singled out and to miss important things in assemblies.

Does/did it bother you? AIBU to be annoyed?

YANBU I'm not understanding why Christian worship is a part of the secular school curriculum. As a poster above says, I counter the stories my DCs bring back by saying that I'm an atheist, and some people believe in God/Jesus and some people don't. I generally leave it at that.

Like the sound of those hymns, Broomstick!

Hmm, once a month on an invitation is quite different from the daily assemblies most schools have. And I said atheism-leaning science, so the hypothetical church lectures would be heavily influenced by 'this is the evidence we have that there is no God' (obviously that's a very simplistic way of putting it). Im sure most churches would be accommodating of hearing 'another view', but it seems if the tables were completely turned, it would not be welcomed at all.

Madhairday, would you say if it really came down to it, that you believe because you 'want' to believe there's 'more', rather than you 'know it'? As I've said previously, I can see why people would despair of this world sometimes, I can see how people would hope so much that there must be something bigger going on to justify it. Going on a feeling doesn't really mean a lot, the human brain is capable of so much, including fooling our minds. We are such imaginative creatures, we really can convince ourselves of anything. It's what separates us from other animals, though it's not always a good thing.

I'd be perfectly happy if the DCs school happened to decide they wanted to have a Richard Dawkins celebration and put on a play. I fear it wouldn't be very interesting, or very sparkly, though. Not to mention the lack of cute little reception donkeys.

But BroomstickOfLove, once again you're totally missing the point. It's not about learning about different faiths and what some people believe. I have a GCSE in RE myself, I have no issues with discussion. This is about teaching Christianity as a fact in schools. Not 'some people believe Jesus is humanities saviour, let's discuss it' but 'Jesus died for you, now let's put our hands together and praise him'. The latter leaves no room for discussion, you either do it, or ask to be removed from it.

put on a play once or twice a year celebrating the life of Richard Dawkins? Would you be happy for your children to be involved in that, honestly?
^Id love that, he's had a much more interesting life than Jesus, and been crucified more times than he was too...

I've got to say I share Edmund's view, to those posters saying they have repeatedly 'questioned their faith' and still come to have it, I dont think you have questioned it vigorously enough. I have thrown some pretty searching questions out to believers on this thread and they have been ignored.

I agree about us being imaginative creatures, Edmund. It's one of the things that makes us as humans so very wonderful. I think it's because we're made in God's image, but that's by the by

Interesting question. Can I answer that I would be somewhere between 'want it to be real' and 'know for 100% certainty with no doubt whatsoever?' I think the latter would be arrogant and unrealistic, because there must always be room for doubt, and the former doesn't describe where I am with it either, because my experiences of God, for me, are undeniable, intense and profound, and I think that there is a great amount of evidence for God, which I have not been able to pitch doubt against successfully despite trying to.

What about you - would you say you know for sure, 100% certainty there is no God, or is there some room for possibility? :)

That doesn't really answer your question, does it sorry...

Well that's another issue Madhairday. Dressing up religion as 'cute and sparkling' is drawing kids in under rather false pretences isn't it? It's not the true face of religion. I'm sure they'd have more fun as the spaghetti monster than the back end of a donkey though, to be fair.

We have brought her up to think widely and critically, to question her faith and qualify it with comprehensive knowledge.

Oh goodness me no! "to question her faith and qualify it with comprehensive knowledge"?!?! Knowledge of what exactly? Scriptures? That serve no purpose but to ensure she can pointlessly parrot back parables of good deeds Jesus did, and amazing things that god did, which don't qualify anything!!

I've questioned it very vigorously, Ollie. I have a degree in theology from a secular university. They threw pretty much everything at me... it was fun. I've continued to question since, to listen, to weigh up. For me though, it's not only about head knowledge and empirical evidence, but about something far deeper, at the heart of the human condition, and repeated experience of encounter with God.

This is about teaching Christianity as a fact in schools

A lot of people of faith on here seem to be missing the key point.

Can any person of faith explain why there needs to be an act of collective worship by law to a deity in schools?

Hymns are nice. Agreed.

But....why should schools be told by LAW that a daily act of collective worship is compulsory?

The spaghetti monster would be fun to dress up as, for sure, but rather cliched as an argument - as I said before, I agree schools shouldn't be places where faith is presented as fact.

Not at all, Ollie. What I mean by 'qualify her faith' is test it and weigh it by being well read about arguments for and against, and coming to her own thoughtful opinion. She's certainly not one to 'parrot' scripture in brainwashed style. She knows her mind...

Yes for some reason school nativities leave out Herod's slaughter if the innocents...

Madhairday

Why do you want it to be true, what's the alternative for you?

What about you - would you say you know for sure, 100% certainty there is no God, or is there some room for possibility?

I'm as certain as certain can be that there's no Christian god, or modern day variants. As certain as I am there's no old gods, or fairies or unicorns. Absolutely nothing I d seen, heard, read, discussed has ever come close to convincing me.

On the other hand, if you ask me 'do you believe there is any higher power', that's a more interesting question. A higher power can come in many forms. Time for example is a higher power to me - we can't stop it, command it, change it. We have to go with it like riding a wave. But it's not a God, nor controlled by one. I do not believe there is some humanoid deity looking down on us in any way, shape or form. I don't believe in an afterlife or that we keep who we are after we die. I believe we are bits of carbon floating around in space, who by some off chance became a bit too self aware. It's just the way things progressed through the right mixture of evolution and chance.

I am a non-believer (an agnostic in the best case) and my daughter goes to RC school. We discuss whatever she learns and we also discuss other religions. I'm not bothered, I believe that exposure to religions will enrich her life and teach her more understanding and values.

madhair

Do you think schools should have an act of collective worship?

Or is that something that people can carry out in their own time and not as part of a school community?

It's more than wanting it to be true, as I said above - I thought it would be disingenous to make a definite statement that I 'know' it, because I believe in room for doubt, in order that faith comes from an authentic place rather than a 'blah blah shut out the world I don't want to hear it' place.

It's hard to say what the alternative is for me, as it brings so much richness and freedom and joy to my life. If it turns out not to be true, therefore, will harm have been done to me/those I love? (I'm not talking in broader terms here because of course I can see the harm religion in many guises has done over history, and am sickened by it) I don't know - it's hard to think in terms of not wanting it, because it underpins who I am, I guess. Any other people of faith got thoughts on that?

The spaghetti monster would be fun to dress up as, for sure, but rather cliched as an argument

Absolutely agree it's a cliche, but so is 'I can't prove there's a God, I just feel it very deeply'. Would love to hear a defence for religion other than this.

What I mean by 'qualify her faith' is test it and weigh it by being well read about arguments for and against

Right, and how exactly has she tested it?
I'm probing so much because one of my very dear friends was raised with two christian parents who also insisted he knew his mind, and he was encouraged to question his faith, when he went to university and studied philosophy, he realised he didn't believe at all and had a mental breakdown. He's in a much better place with his life now.

Has your daughter read science books, not just 'atheist' books?

Has she asked- how would be life be better or worse if I decided to live as an atheist and reject the idea of god.

And have you asked yourself how you would feel if she came to you one day and said "after studying it more closely, ive come to realise there are far too many holes and contradictions in the bible, god isn't what you told me he is and I dont think it's real, I no longer believe."

Will she go to hell?

egosum

No, I don't. But I do think that schools should continue with some kind of thinking time, where children hear views and stories from different parties (as long as not harmful views, obviously) and have a chance to be thankful/think about kindness etc. That's pretty much what collective worship is, in most schools, including a lot of CofE schools I know of.
As for hymns, perhaps a balance of songs from different traditions, so children have an opportunity to hear things from different cultures and worldviews?

And yes, 'worship' is something which should be carried out in people's own time according to their own beliefs.

I'm not Madhairday, but I can honestly say that my faith isn't down to 'want', because I spent a large chunk of my life desperately trying to ignore it and pretend it wasn't there, and trying and failing to be an atheist.

I'm not sure if I'll ever tell my mother about my faith - in her eyes, it's one of the worst things I could possibly do, and she would be very disappointed and ashamed of me. I grew up in an atheist family surrounded by Christian fundamentalists, so I grew thinking that God was about the sort of bigotry that they espoused.

It's only very recently, after years of going to church that feel comfortable identifying as a Christian, and I still want to follow it with a '...but'. But despite the personal difficulties (and the practical difficulties, and the general impracticality, and the social awkwardness) it feels incredibly restful to listen and connect to God instead of spending my spiritual life sticking my fingers in my ears and running away.

I don't talk about my faith very much outside of Church and Mumsnet (because we've all spent far too long listening to people rant on about God to an unwilling audience) but I feel the freedom of finally being honest to myself. And for all the awkwardness, it does feel worth it. Going back to a life without God would feel like losing a sense,

Sure, Ollie, I understand why you are asking. I'm sorry to hear about your friend but so pleased he's in a better place in his life now.

All good questions. I suppose you'd need to ask my DD directly - I'll mention it to her and see what she thinks. As far as science goes, it's her best subjects and she's going on to do biology and chemistry as well as RE, she loves physics as well and very much enjoys reading about the wonder of the world. She's got a lot of years of discovery ahead of her, and we've always made it very clear to her that matters of faith are completely up to her, and if she turns around and says she's decided against it we would never, ever try to influence her choice or be against her in any way. We love her, and want her to flourish and know herself and her own mind.

As for hell, I reject the traditional idea of hell and believe it to be highly unbiblical. I believe God is love, and the idea of eternal conscious torment is so far from the God I know I can't begin to get my head round why people have adopted a mediaeval idea which sought to control the masses and extort money from peasants.

Lovely post, Broomstick :)

I'm not missing the point at all Edmund. I have said, repeatedly, that I don't think that children should be forced to participate in an act of religious worship in schools. I am now, having read the thread, starting to change my mind and think that possibly everyone should have the chance to join in with Christian prayers, Wiccan rituals, statements that there is no God etc just to try out how they feel and be exposed to practices outside their spiritual comfort zone. Nobody should be telling children that any of those are necessarily true, but in the same way that in school assembly a Christian prayer will be read out and the children invited to say 'amen' if they want to (or so I've heard - my children's school doesn't have religious assemblies) the scope of religious/non religious viewpoints could be widened considerably.

I really like The Satanic Temple in the U.S. who challenge the creeping-in of Christianity into state institutions by holding the Satanic equivalent. Their after-school satanism clubs were rather lovely, and they've done invocations before local council sessions etc.