To get annoyed when dd(6) learns about Christianity?

[MooPointCowsOpinion]

She is at a non-religious, normal state primary. She is the type of kid who remembers everything she's told and parrots it back, so I hear about her entire day every day at school. Almost every day she tells me they sang this song about Jesus, learnt that story about Jesus, learnt this lesson about Christianity. Every assembly they sing a Christian song.

I am an atheist. I don't want her to learn just about Christianity, all religions are important in a 'this is what some people believe' kind of way but I feel like they're indoctrinating her into Christianity by pushing it so much. I try to counter it by teaching her other religious beliefs and telling her my beliefs, but I know the steady drip drip of information could plant a seed that could lead to what I would consider radicalisation.

I've brought it up with her teacher, she's sympathetic and has given us the option to opt-out but I'd hate for her to feel singled out and to miss important things in assemblies.

Does/did it bother you? AIBU to be annoyed?

I wonder what evidence you would accept as evidence?

What a few people 'believe' in their own mind will never convince me of a God. The human mind is infinitely complex, one of the greatest things that separate us from other animals is our ability to imagine and make up stories. Having 'seen things' isn't proof either, though whenever I've asked a firm believer to expand on these amazing, soul changing experiences they either transpire not to have seen anything spectacular or unexplainable, or they avoid the question with 'well you wouldn't understand'.

Saying someone sees god in every day things isn't an explanation either, it's just seeing what you want to see, talking to who you imagine is there because the idea we're alone without a 'master plan' in this universe is too difficult for some to comprehend.

What evidence would I myself need for proof? Actually documented evidence of a God speaking to us, showing themselves, doing something beyond all doubt of explanation. Sitting in silence for apparently 2000 years, after only initially speaking to a very tiny part of humanity to start with, is a very odd thing for an all known/doing god to be spending their time doing. Especially one who's apparently so desperate for all of humanity to believe in them.

MO55chop5 - but technically speaking the UK isn't actually a secular country is it, since we have a state religion, or have I got that wrong?I know in everyday life the UK operates on a secular basis. I'm currently in the USA which IS a secular country but ironically far more people identify as religious here.

I have noticed on MN that it's not the Christians who try to force their beliefs on others but the atheists.

But aren't children born atheist? It's religion that has to be taught to them. Atheism is just the default really. I don't think taking religious worship out of schools is forcing atheism on them.

Im presuming here that most parents who worry about tbeir children hearing about God and Jesus heard all this in school themselves and ended up atheists. So obviously it doesnt infiltrate much. Its funny how people really worry.about their dc hearing about Jesus and dont worry too much about them hearing about other beliefs.

I don't mind children hearing about beliefs. I do mind when the law states that a school HAS to have a daily act of worship. That goes beyond just hearing about beliefs.

I don't mind religious education/studies in mainstream schooling. But as I am currently spending much of my time consoling my youngest that they won't die like Jesus on their birthday (Easter) and that Jesus really is not coming back from the dead to haunt them, I wish more thought was out into how it was taught and might come across to a bunch of 4-5 year olds, several of whom have very recently experienced death and have relatives with terminals illnesses. It's not like the school doesn't know these things.

Maybe schools should teach religious belief in an honest way. Primary schools are great at mentioning the positives but skip over angry Old Testament God. They don't mention views on women or gay people. I wonder why not?

I find it really a bit odd when Christians or agnostics use the defence that our generation heard all this in school themselves and ended up atheists, as though this is a good reason to carry on doing it.
Christianity can't be much good if the effect of teaching it in school turns people atheist. So it would appear that acts of worship in school are pointless from tge church's point of view as well as from the point of view of the largely non-church-going public.

I'm an atheist . My children sing hymns in school assembly, do nativity at Christmas and learn some bits about Jesus. I'm not the least bit worried they will be radicalised by this!

If they do decide to take up religion, up to them. Their choice.

I know God exists because I talk to him every day. He is my friend, my brother, my King. I have been utterly overwhelmed in his presence, I see his hand on every aspect of my life, and I have seen the power and the supernatural knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

With respect, this is the kind of view I would be dismayed by if my daughter adopted it.

Its the closed minded nature of your words "there is nothing you can ever say or do that will change that fact" that you have actually forgotten the meaning of the word 'fact'. I wonder what would have to happen to make you loose your faith and belief I god, as so many others have?

You also mentioned the feeling of overwhelm, which I have to address. My neighbour is a devout evangelical christian, we had our first babies just weeks apart from each other and we met up to discuss their births. She described the overwhelm when her son was handed to her, how thankful and humbled she felt that god had helped her to deliver him safely into her arms, she felt like god had truly blessed her and told me that nothing could come close to the feeling of love and wonderment brought by the knowledge that god had created her perfect son for her.

What she didn't know, because I didn't tell her, was that I experienced such intense euphoria when my little girl was placed in my arms, it was enough to convince anyone I had had a devine revelation. In realty I was blown away by the ingenuity of my own body and I felt so lucky that I was able to have a perfect little girl, when I knew so many others couldn't. The beauty of human biology honed to almost perfection by millions of years of selective evolution meant I could revel in the joy of giving life, it was all pure science, and I loved it.

It is totally possible to be intensely mindful, spiritual and even thankful when you do not believe in god- when you even reject the idea of his existence. Our brains are amazing things and our biology can produce wonderful experiences.

Why would you put something as precious as your human experience in the theoretical hands of a deity? What if god 'did something' that caused you to question your trust in him? You would be alone.

To be clear- my post was in no way meant to hurt anyone suffering with fertility issues. I only meant to point out I realise I'm immensely lucky to be able to have my daughter without incident.

My neighbour argued that god had blessed her because obviously she was so deserving. A ridiculous and very hurtful notion, that she was too blinded by her faith to see.

I wonder what evidence you would accept as evidence

God appearing in front of the world and asking people WTAF is going on down there with his creation?

All people are atheists when it comes to 99.99% of the deities that have existed in the past 25,000 years.

Some of us just go the extra mile and make that 100% atheist.

And that's what I meant by the divide.

Everything I experience points me closer to God. He is as much of a factual presence in my life as my parents and my grandparents; it is meaningless to me to suggest they don't (or didn't) exist.

There is more written evidence (not just the bible but contemporaneous records by Romans and others) for the existence of Jesus as a person than there is for Julius Caesar. And yet few people have issues believing Caeser existed. is that acceptable evidence that Jesus existed?

It then comes down to whether or not you believe he was God incarnate, or else just a man. And people have been divided on that for around 2000 years.

I think he was indeed the son of God. I think he did die on that cross, rose again, and is still alive now. I think I can talk to him and he answers me, I think I know him and I love him.

You think I'm wrong. and I don't think anything I could do would convince you otherwise. Because my experience will always be outside your experience, and yours will always be outside mine.

For me, it isn't about putting my life in the hands of some theoretical deity. It's about putting my life in the hands of someone I know and love and can't trust to never ever let me fall. It doesn't mean my life is perfect, believe me. It doesn't mean I haven't experienced huge loss in my life. And it doesn't mean I think I'm somehow more blessed than the non-Christian next door. But my comforter, my guide, my friend is always, always right here with me.

To ask what happens if I stop believing is to ask me what happens if I stop believing in my parents. They don't cease to exist if I stop believing in them - and how do you stop believing in a person anyway?

SilenceOfThePrams and that's exactly what I mean about deflecting any questions asked about 'evidence of god', as asked in my previous post. The bible doesn't count, yes there may have been records of a guy that closely describes Jesus but still nothing concrete. The bible itself is man-written stories, mistranslated and missing several 'books'. It certainly cannot be used as factual evidence, as much as the Di Vinci Code could be a true event of Jesus' life.

As for the comparison to your parents - they are real, physical entities than presumably you have spoken to, they spoke back, interacted with you etc. God isn't a person, it's very easy not to believe in one as it is not to believe in elves and fairies. Or gods from other religions like Zeus or Freya. You know those latter deities don't exist, so why not your specific god who also has the history but not the current ability to make themselves 'known'.

silence

It makes no odds to me what you believe. Your faith is your faith and it obviously means a lot to you.

But your faith is your faith. Schools should not have to have an act of collective daily worship to something that you believe in but others don't. Schools should teach about religion but not have to have an act of worship.

I also think schools should not skip over some of the more controversial aspects done in the name of religion and some of the views that pupils may have an issue with - such as LGBT views and views on women.

There is more written evidence (not just the bible but contemporaneous records by Romans and others) for the existence of Jesus as a person than there is for Julius Caesar.
This simply isn't true. There are no contemporaneous Roman records that Jesus existed.

"BartholinsSister"

True. A few lines from writers decades later, a stone carved with a name and more writings (again from decades later) that most people accept have been altered to include lines about Jesus. Even Paul (for whom an awful lot rests on) never met Jesus.

Compulsory RE for GCSE is ridiculous. Religion is such a minor part of public life nowadays, you could easily cover the essentials in a term of history / PSE classes and devote the rest of the time to something useful.

Have you actually looked at the RE GCSE curriculum?

It's not about learning the details of observances of various religions, it's about comparative thought and ethics. And given the increasingly diverse society in UK, I see it as very important.

That said, you can opt your DC out of RE (schools have to provide it, but your DC does not have to do it). Some schools have a policy of doing the exam if you're doing the course, but not all do.

So why not call it comparative thought and ethics then?

I live in a country where religion is actively banned in schools and so much the better for kids. I haven't read a single thing on this thread that persuades me one iota that religion is a private business that has no place in schools.

I also think schools should not skip over some of the more controversial aspects done in the name of religion and some of the views that pupils may have an issue with - such as LGBT views and views on women.
Almost all schools Ive worked in have looked at homosexuality and 'marriage and the family'. In all that discussions of gay marriage, same sex relationships, attitudes ti family roles, womens roles come up.
And they get explored from multiple perspectives, including within faiths because not all Christians/Muslims believe the same things.

*claraschu

All people are atheists when it comes to 99.99% of the deities that have existed in the past 25,000 years.

Some of us just go the extra mile and make that 100% atheist.*

So true. And isn't it rather arrogant and blinkered to believe your particular God is real, therefore all others are not? This in itself baffles the belief of my rational and non judgemental mind...

Oh I believe other "gods" exist, I just don't think they are "God!" If they didn't, then why would we be warned against following them and be misled by them?

I'm sorry that your daughter's assemblies aren't more to your taste though. Do they ever have visiting groups or people at them? Our church has a team of people (all DBS checked, all trained), who go into schools to talk in assemblies about what Christians believe. Are there some secular organisations who might be interested in doing the same and putting forwards an alternative perspective? Perhaps you'd be able to look into it and make some suggestions? Or offer to sort something yourself, if you have relevant skills? I don't - public speaking especially to children is one of my nightmares! But I can imagine it would be interesting to the children to have alternative viewpoints put forwards. And in a non-faith based school, I'd hope the head would be open to the idea of widening the overall experience.

That already exists Prams - I'm a BHA school speaker (although they're too cheap to get us DBS-checked so I need to stay around a member of staff). School staff can go online and request a BHA school speaker and the BHA will try to match them up with a speaker in their area.