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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask a question of th grammar school supporters on here?

284 replies

BertrandRussell · 15/03/2017 10:37

If selective education is so effective, why don't wholly selective areas get significantly better GCSE results than wholly comprehensive ones?

OP posts:
Mumzypopz · 15/03/2017 12:13

Halcyon days....I know quite a few parents who have paid for private tutors to coach their children specifically to get them into a grammar. It succeeded. I'm not talking about normal additional tuition, this tutor advertises himself as a grammar school entrance coach. He taught the kids what they are looking for and how to think in a different way when answering questions etc.

egosumquisum1 · 15/03/2017 12:14

It's not always about the percentage passing, but the grades they get

I think the one certain thing is that it's very hard to say what effect grammar schools have.

I bet all parents would love their children to go to a grammar school. But if all children went to a grammar school, that would not be selective.

So you select by ability. Not all children pass. Then what.

Mumzypopz · 15/03/2017 12:15

Bertrand...Perhaps we are not understanding your question right, can you explain it in a different way. I took it that you were asking how come areas who are highly selective, ie grammars don't get higher results, and we are all saying they do?

graciestocksfield · 15/03/2017 12:15

DD's grammar has actually less strict rules on uniform and discipline than many of her counterparts at the local academy have. Because they don't need them. They don't have a discipline problem nor do they need to show off how tough they are to Ofsted by introducing disproportionate sanctions for minor flouting of the rules. They can actually get on and learn and be challenged to do work that is at a higher level than required by the national curriculum.

graciestocksfield · 15/03/2017 12:20

Largely unless they are in education policy, parents don't really care about educational areas and what the results are as an area, Bertrand. They care about getting their kids into a school which suits them.

egosumquisum1 · 15/03/2017 12:20

ie grammars don't get higher results, and we are all saying they do

Grammars get higher results.

But the argument is about having areas with grammar schools in - and the fact that having a grammar school in the area is supposed to lift up ALL schools in that area.

Mumzypopz · 15/03/2017 12:22

Ego....Why are grammars supposed to lift up the results of the whole area they are in?

Mumzypopz · 15/03/2017 12:23

People travel 20 miles to get to the nearest grammar to me, they don't always live in the same area.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 15/03/2017 12:25

Mumzy. My question was about areas not schools. Why do wholly selective areas not do significantly better than wholly comprehensive ones.

OP posts:
Headofthehive55 · 15/03/2017 12:26

I think there is dissatisfaction within the system. The question is, how to improve?

Mumzypopz · 15/03/2017 12:28

Bertrand. .Which areas are you saying is wholly selective, and what type of schools are you talking about? In my area, high schools aren't selective?

Mumzypopz · 15/03/2017 12:29

Sorry, I'm not aware of areas that are wholly selective.

Headofthehive55 · 15/03/2017 12:30

Do areas such as Kent (selective) get more people going to uni than Stoke or Nottingham ( comp) ?

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 15/03/2017 12:35

Kent, for example, is wholly selective.

OP posts:
SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 15/03/2017 12:36

Mumzy it means places where the selective system is universal, as in you either pass and go to grammar, or you don't take it/don't pass and go to High School. It's still a selective area, even though (or rather, precisely because) the majority don't get selected.

BoboChic · 15/03/2017 12:37

The choice and diversity in English schools is so very great that a simple statistical comparison of exam grades in grammar versus non-grammar areas is entirely meaningless. There are multiple other variables contributing to performance.

Annesmyth123 · 15/03/2017 12:37

Northern Ireland is an area and as a wholly selective area where there is no ability to move to a comp area, gets better results by quite some way, than any selective or comp area in the rest of the uk

I find it interesting how you ask one question and move the goal posts when your question, as it was posed, is proven to be based on a fallacy.

flyingwithwings · 15/03/2017 12:38

Bertrand why are you 'conventional' disregarding evidence from Northern Ireland and Trafford that do out perform Comprehensive areas !

You just want to use only information that supports you cause and disregard anything that may question it !

I have also said i don't believe this is a question than can be answered with a 'binary' answer.

However, Bertrand why do you fail to acknowledge that Trafford and Northern Ireland do better than most fully comprehensive areas.

One reason why we can't have a binary answer is because local characteristics are at play.

This does mean though you cannot just say 'why don't Grammar school areas get better results than Comprehensive areas' by only using Kent or Lincs.

egosumquisum1 · 15/03/2017 12:39

There are multiple other variables contributing to performance

You'd have thought someone would explain that to Theresa May - as in where's the evidence to back up new grammar schools.

(I was lucky - I went to a selective grammar school. It's still at the top of its game. I do wonder what would have happened if I'd gone to a non selective school)

SeekEveryEveryKnownHidingPlace · 15/03/2017 12:40

And so, if grammar schools were so amazing at lifting children's grades, then that would mean that the overall pass marks in areas where the clever children go to grammar would have to be higher than in areas where the clever children are (apparently) left to fail in all the sinking comps with the dire behaviour.

Equally, if grammar schools were a good system for those who get selected and for those who don't, you'd also expect that any additional benefit for the children who are selected wouldn't be accompanied by a lower average from children at the other end of the scale - i.e., their results wouldn't be any lower as a result of not being selected than they would have been in a comprehensive area.

egosumquisum1 · 15/03/2017 12:40

One reason why we can't have a binary answer is because local characteristics are at play

As Donald Trump said on US healthcare, it's complicated....

BoboChic · 15/03/2017 12:40

It is not inconceivable that migration in and out of grammar school areas distorts overall performance. A lot of people move to Kent for the grammar schools. A lot of people leave Kent in search of comprehensives.

flyingwithwings · 15/03/2017 12:41

'Conveniently' that is why i went to a Modern (no doubt the only poster on here that has personal experience)

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 15/03/2017 12:45

"Northern Ireland is an area and as a wholly selective area where there is no ability to move to a comp area, gets better results by quite some way, than any selective or comp area in the rest of the uk

I find it interesting how you ask one question and move the goal posts when your question, as it was posed, is proven to be based on a fallacy."

It's not based on a fallacy. If NI was divided in two and half was selective and half was comprehensive and the grammar half did significantly better, then yes, it would be valid. And it is also worth considering why NI does better than other wholly selective areas in other parts of the U.K. Why do you think that is?

OP posts:
graciestocksfield · 15/03/2017 12:45

It's rather misleading to call schools which are non-selective in Kent "High schools". There are academies, free schools and faith schools (and probably others) and the vast majority stream within the schools.

The school I went to, in a wholly non-selective area was a former grammar school, and called a High school.