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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

why should house of lords be able to determine our future?

365 replies

dreamingofsun · 07/03/2017 18:32

Could someone explain to me why an unelected group of people (many of whom seem old/senile/out of touch with every day life) determine our terms of leaving the european union - and whether we leave it at all. the british public voted to leave - so why do they think they can alter that? why do they think they can over-rule what the majority of public said?

OP posts:
unicornsIlovethem · 08/03/2017 14:52

New Zealand and Australia were also not very happy when Britain joined the EEA in the first place and destroyed their markets overnight. New Zealand in particular had a very difficult time in the 1980s and 1990s with huge brain drains and poverty.

Nevertheless, I'm sure they will be absolutely thrilled to help us out now. Just like India is - if we provide lots and lots of visas.

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 14:53

The key point in all this is:

Who should decide what form Brexit should take?
Who should decide what is non negotiable?
Should we 'reveal' our hand before hand?
What role does Parliament play?

We have decided to leave. Who gets to decide what leave looks like?

HardcoreLadyType · 08/03/2017 14:54

Australia just completed a trade deal with China.

It took 10 years to negotiate.

Australia has a lot of stuff China wants, like rare earth minerals. (This is why Australia has not been in recession, despite the world-wide recession.)

What does the UK have that China wants? (Oh, I know - arms. Yay Britain! We get to be the arms dealer to the world!)

BertrandRussell · 08/03/2017 14:56

"Actually, in politics and philosophy, people who don't vote are presumed to acquiesce to the majority vote. So all non-voters can be counted towards agreeing with Brexit."

Really? I thought generally, non voters were expected to tend towards the status quo.

BertrandRussell · 08/03/2017 14:58

Someone shared a very interesting short video on Facebook about trade deals by a professor from the LSE. She was called Ngaio something- I'll see if I can find it.

ArcheryAnnie · 08/03/2017 15:07

Don't they get free flash meals too?

No, they don't.

nauticant · 08/03/2017 15:07

Australia just completed a trade deal with China.

It took 10 years to negotiate.

There's no way taking that long will be politically acceptable for post-Brexit UK. Our politicians will promise deals in a couple of years and they'll deliver. The problem is they'll be crap deals because the other side will have the luxury to drag their heels while we won't.

I'm morbidly fascinated to see that kind of deal we get with the US.

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 15:08

Just like India is - if we provide lots and lots of visas

You'd almost think trade deals come at a price - such as immigration...

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 15:09

I'm morbidly fascinated to see that kind of deal we get with the US

America first. Putting American jobs first. Buy American.

IadoreEfteling · 08/03/2017 15:13

Oh no, please don't mention animal welfare. Standards are again low, I think many people see legislation and thinks its a fait acommopli.... Eg great children protection act, well done eu. In reality the situation for children has got worse across the eu. Oh brilliant legislation on farms, all farms must be of x standard when again, farms across the eu are checked by welfare groups, they are found operating no where near the supposed standard. UK pigs are treated far better than pigs across eu, we have far more pressures and initiatives to get all chickens free range and we don't eat horse meat unless.....

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 15:16

UK pigs are treated far better than pigs across eu, we have far more pressures and initiatives to get all chickens free range and we don't eat horse meat unless

And part of being in the EU meant we could have helped raise standards in the EU.

But that never happened.

I hope we are able to maintain competitiveness when UK farmers are competing with world farmers on a global market.

IadoreEfteling · 08/03/2017 15:18

Ha ha ha lots of visas oh dear. Visas are are great idea I can't wait to have balanced immigration again rather than top heavy from one place. I never understood the morality of randomly allowing access to the UK from the eu but blocking people who make have skills we need from other places. Once fom is under control again we can look at the whole world again, not just the white fortress.

nauticant · 08/03/2017 15:18

So let's get this right. You mention animal welfare in order to give us a little lecture and then forbid us from mentioning it.

I don't think I'll ever follow Brexiteer logic.

scaryteacher · 08/03/2017 15:21

AMI But I really hope we don't spoil our relationship with a massive trading nation on our doorstep. There is no massive trading nation on our doorstep - the federalists would like that to be the case, but there are actually 28 EU member states, not one homogenous mass called the USE as yet.

Sukey I said 'some' or many leavers had done their research, but being referred to as a knuckle dragger by Miniatureegg is about par for the course. I can see the reasons why remainers wanted to stay in, but for me they were just not strong enough. I think many remainers voted as they did because they thought there was a status quo they were voting for, but there isn't. I think Project Fear also played a part in the remain vote.

Jassy Britain can't formally enter negotiations on individual trade deals until it's left the EU. The best that can happen is preliminary talks. And we'd be beyond foolish to try to enter formal negotiations before we have left, in terms of the impact on th exit negotiations. Please point out where I said formal talks? I was very careful not to put formal in there. When the EU plays by the rules, then I expect we will. Juncker has already accused the UK of entering into formal negotiations. However, scoping talks can encompass quite a lot as can bilateral meetings.

If the EU had any sense, it would welcome us going as it takes the brake off defence plans, and EU foreign policy, and negotiate accordingly. After all, the UK was the fly in the EU ointment. The question is whether Juncker, Tusk, Mogherini, Verhofstadt, Barnier et al will want to make this work on a practical level, which would benefit both sides, or whether they will be difficult because they can, as the integrity of the project has been dented. I find it odd that no-one though that member states might want to leave one day, and make plans accordingly. It's that Brussels bubble again.

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 15:21

I think we are being derailed here.

The thread is about Parliament vs Government. Not about pros and cons of Brexit.

Ultimately, Parliament should have a say on Brexit and the red lines.

IadoreEfteling · 08/03/2017 15:22

How can we do anything in the great sloppy eu when there is no incentive to change, no teeth to enforce legislation? HOW many years do you think it would take the eu to raise animal standards? We have been in for forty Shock. The possible next president says.... Of course it's stagnant, of course we canonot can't get anything done
We are not joined enough, we need closer union to function effectively. Confused

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 15:22

scary

Do you think Parliament should have final say on what Brexit looks like?

BertrandRussell · 08/03/2017 15:32

I suspect that if animal welfare is a consideration we won't be doing any deals with China or India any time soon.............

DalekBred · 08/03/2017 15:57

I don't get it, why when there's welfare cuts left right and centre they pay this doddery dusty bunch 300 quid a day?! fgs surely that should be the first austerity cut. Don't they get free flash meals too?
If anyone plans a march to boot out the old scroungers count me in

^^This.

But of course they are REALLY blocking it cos you know, we Leavers are too stupid and thick and xenophobic and tottally unaware of what we were voting for. cos you know, we are THICK.

itsmine · 08/03/2017 15:59

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

IadoreEfteling · 08/03/2017 15:59

Oh............. Is it a consideration? I have no idea but I know it's pointless to try and hold up the eu as some great standard bearer of animal standards. We import Vile danepack after all Confused in general the UK public seems quite hot on animal standard so if people buy stuff thru buy, if they don't they don't.

IadoreEfteling · 08/03/2017 16:01

Itsmine it had been railled against, very much so and by posters on this very thread who are now clinging to its snoozing octogenarians red fluffy coat tails Grin because it suits them now you see Grin

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 16:02

But of course they are REALLY blocking it cos you know, we Leavers are too stupid and thick and xenophobic and tottally unaware of what we were voting for. cos you know, we are THICK

If you think it's being blocked, then you probably don't realise the role of Parliament is making decisions about the country.

JassyRadlett · 08/03/2017 16:03

Please point out where I said formal talks? I was very careful not to put formal in there.

By specifying only that nothing could be signed until post-Brexit you strongly implied that all else - including years of formal negotiations - could happen before.

Weasel words were your aim, though, eh? I'd hoped for a better and more honest standard of debate. Perhaps foolishly, but I'm an optimist.

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 16:04

it had been railled against, very much so and by posters on this very thread who are now clinging to its snoozing octogenarians red fluffy coat tails

Do you think that any Parliament needs an Upper Chamber or do you think that any Government needs no checks and balances and should be able to do what it wants because it is in power?