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AIBU?

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Original poster

why should house of lords be able to determine our future?

365 replies

dreamingofsun · 07/03/2017 18:32

Could someone explain to me why an unelected group of people (many of whom seem old/senile/out of touch with every day life) determine our terms of leaving the european union - and whether we leave it at all. the british public voted to leave - so why do they think they can alter that? why do they think they can over-rule what the majority of public said?

OP posts:
EdithWeston · 08/03/2017 13:11

Point if detail. There are about 825 members of the House of Lords. About 700 are life peers (ie appointed).

Since 1999, the number of working hereditary peers is 92 (90 by election in the House, 2 ex officio).

scaryteacher · 08/03/2017 13:18

Totally agree Bill

SukeyTakeItOffAgain · 08/03/2017 13:36

If that assertion came from anyone impartial then I would give it more thought. But BillSykesDog and scaryteacher have been so rapidly pro Brexit all I'm thinking is "Well they would say that, wouldn't they?"

MrsDoylesladder · 08/03/2017 13:41

Bill - if THEY were that organised, we wouldn't be in this stupid fecking mess.

IadoreEfteling · 08/03/2017 13:57

This is what concerns me Bill. This is the feeling behind it all.

I don't think this is a stupid fucking mess actually, this is what I expect after cataclysmic political rupture.

I look at the EU and I see horror, chaos, dubious priorities, and all sorts of nasty things though. For the UK I see nothing but a wonderful chance to create what we want to create thats best for us.

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 14:00

For the UK I see nothing but a wonderful chance to create what we want to create thats best for us

Who do you think should have the say on the TYPE of Brexit?

What role do our elected representatives have?

BertrandRussell · 08/03/2017 14:01

"For the UK I see nothing but a wonderful chance to create what we want to create thats best for us"

Who do you think our first trade deals are going to be with?

MrsDoylesladder · 08/03/2017 14:02

As horrible as the monsters we've unleashed here? Polish descent kids called "vermin", an MP shot doing her job? Make more noise about fixing that shit, putting that genie back in the bottle, before whining about the functioning of our parliamentary that should come as no surprise to you.

scaryteacher · 08/03/2017 14:02

Sukey rapidly pro Brexit. Nothing rapid about it actually. I have been anti EU for a long time, since my 20s, and I am now 51.

SukeyTakeItOffAgain · 08/03/2017 14:07

It was an autocorrect from rabidly.

As I suspect you knew already given that rapidly pro Brexit doesn't actually make sense.

scaryteacher · 08/03/2017 14:08

Bertrand Australia, NZ, Canada. I think the Australian one is being scoped out, but nothing can be signed until post Brexit. Can't see why we can't hold talks and get most of the details thrashed out before though. Talks have also been held with Canada according to their newspapers.

scaryteacher · 08/03/2017 14:10

Why shouldn't I be pro Brexit? Every time I go past Berlaymont my teeth itch.

MrsDoylesladder · 08/03/2017 14:11

Do you know what I think would be brilliant- some kind of "no borders" trade deal with our nearest geographical neighbours....

Megatherium · 08/03/2017 14:13

What utter nonsense, we are a leading beacon on rights round the world, that came from largely Labour policies too - not the EU

Not entirely true; but the point is that realistically there is no current chance of Labour getting back into power, and we have a government that is hell-bent on removing rights and protections from the vulnerable. If we no longer have the brake on that that EU membership involves, and also lose the Human Rights Act, suddenly life gets considerably worse for an awful lot of people.

There are also commercial realities to take into consideration. For instance, the reason the EU has good animal welfare protection in place is largely down to our involvement in it. If we left, there is less incentive to keep it. EU animal goods then become considerably cheaper and we're left in the position that if we want to retain decent animal welfare in a market which is already more difficult because of the lack of a free trade agreement with the EU, our farmers will realistically only be selling within the UK.

Megatherium · 08/03/2017 14:17

Do you think photos of people snoozing through debates with their silly red capes on inspires confidence?

Where are the red capes, itsmine?

Honestly, if people seriously believe that House of Lords debates are carried on by people wearing full ermine robes, is it any wonder that they show so much ignorance of the rest of the Parliamentary process?

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 14:18

Australia, NZ

Who are members of the Trans Pacific partnership.

Bigger trading blocks have more weight in negotiations. And we've just left the EU.

JassyRadlett · 08/03/2017 14:19

Why is everyone so excited about the idea of a trade deal with New Zealand? Has anyone actually looked at the value of same?

New Zealand total imports are worth about a quarter of, say, Austria. And the vast majority of its imports come from countries ever so slightly closer than the UK. Like Australia, China and Japan.

New Zealand will not be our free trade economic saviour.

And unfortunately, you're incorrect. Britain can't formally enter negotiations on individual trade deals until it's left the EU. The best that can happen is preliminary talks. And we'd be beyond foolish to try to enter formal negotiations before we have left, in terms of the impact on th exit negotiations.

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 14:20

Do you know what I think would be brilliant- some kind of "no borders" trade deal with our nearest geographical neighbours

Like NAFTA, Trans Pacific, South America etc?

What could we call it - I do think the EU needs reforming. And maybe this kick up the backside may lead to change. But I really hope we don't spoil our relationship with a massive trading nation on our doorstep.

SukeyTakeItOffAgain · 08/03/2017 14:20

Why shouldn't I be pro Brexit?

I don't think anyone's saying you shouldn't be. You have clearly thought a lot about it and reached a decision. The problem is people like the OP who are on the same "side" as you - Remainers keep being told that they are being insulting by calling the majority of Brexiters ignorant and so on. And then up pops an opinion like the OP on this thread "How dare the Lords exercise their constitutional right, when we who voted for Brexit wanted that very thing!!". Someone on FB the other day was talking about the reason he voted for Brexit was because of the age of the Syrian male refugees being older than they claimed FFS. It was pointed out that Syria wasn't actually in the EU but still he went on about it and ended up calling them scum.

And yet here you are insisting that those who voted for Brexit WERE well informed and they weren't taken in by Boris's hype and they knew exactly what they were doing. It seems that very many didn't have a clue what they were voting for, actually.

Megatherium · 08/03/2017 14:27

If you went into hospital for a major op wouldn't you be concerned if an oap wandered in to greet you and say yes theyre 80 but they're very capable?

Average age of members of the House of Lords: 69.

Average of active members: 50-60.

The depiction of all members of the House of Lords as decrepit inbred hereditary peers swanning around in fancy dress is so incredibly lazy. I would challenge the sneerers around here any day of the week to a debate with the "dozy, demented" members of the Supreme Court or the House of Lords Science and Technology Committee - I guarantee that they would wipe the floor with you.

GrouchyKiwi · 08/03/2017 14:28

New Zealand will not be our free trade economic saviour.
Quite. NZ's population is smaller than Scotland's.

There are 20 million people in Australia, 35 million in Canada. Their economies are no replacement for the 700 million in the EU.

And that's before you consider the geographical problems.

NZ, for example, is more interested in the massive market it has in China than the tiny one in the UK.

BertrandRussell · 08/03/2017 14:30

And as I said when I was asked that question, I might prefer my surgeon not to be 80 for obvious reasons, but I would be very happy if my surgeon had been taught by somebody with that much knowledge and experience...........

BertrandRussell · 08/03/2017 14:36

Incidentally, may I present Baroness Oona King of Bow?

Tippexy · 08/03/2017 14:39

@Scholes34 "But the majority of the British public didn't vote to leave. A majority of those who voted did."

Actually, in politics and philosophy, people who don't vote are presumed to acquiesce to the majority vote. So all non-voters can be counted towards agreeing with Brexit.

amispartacus · 08/03/2017 14:49

Actually, in politics and philosophy, people who don't vote are presumed to acquiesce to the majority vote

Really? That's an unusual argument. People who didn't vote are presumed to have voted for the idea that got the most votes.

Of course, that then means Clinton would have got even more of the popular vote.