AIBU to ask what you intend to do with respect to caring for elderly parents?

[Timeforteaplease]

I'm in my 50s and my DM (in her late 70s) has always said that she does not expect us to care for her. She didn't care for her own parents; they went into a home. But as she gets older, I think (but do not know for sure) that she is changing her mind and would like to move in if/when something goes wrong. I am guessing that she will not want to spend her savings on a care home.
Do we wait for a crisis to happen or talk to her in advance?

What is the norm for care these days?
For background DH and I both work full time, me from the home - but my job is still full time/high pressure.
Looking for good advice from people who have been through this.

They already live with us. I'd put one or both in a home or get a carer to come in if they ever got to the point when I couldn't look after them. At the moment they are both well, with one or two physical health issues and we all help one another out which is great.

I always had elderly relatives living with us when I was growing up and think we all got a lot out of it. I also know how hard it is to make that decision if they become so ill that you can't look after them any more.So I hope I'm reasonably prepared.

My mum i will care for as necessary in her own home ( with or without assistance ) but I'm a retired nurse and already provide her with support . MIL will have to go into a home as I'm not looking after her and DH and his sibling definitely are not in a position to do so .

BarbarianMum That's what I would imagine too. DP watched their own parents dwindle with various illnesses and were a carer for an alzheimer patient, so I don't think they have romantic illusions per se. DM insists if she gets alzheimers her hope would be to get lost in the woods and have a quick end of it on a frosty night... I've told them it might not exactly be upto me to just leave them to it, but since they're both currently healthy, seems little point arguing about it.

If I ask DM anything about the future she always says "oh just push me under a bus"

She cared for DF when he had dementia until it nearly killed her, and then he went into a home. It cost her £££ and it was horrid, I hated visiting him as it made me so sad. I did go every week though, which is more than my 'D'Bs did, they refused saying DF was "too boring"

I would have great difficulty putting DM in a home. I know she would hate it and I know I would feel terrible for doing it. She does not want to leave the house she has lived in for half her life, so I will try to keep her there as long as it is possible using carers etc.

If I have to I will move closer to her, or even in with her, but if we spend lots of time together we will fight as she is a control freak. She still sees me as a silly little girl so she would have to be quite unwell before she would willingly accept help from me.

I'm currently trying to raise the issue of Power of Attorney in case she should suddenly decline, but she just doesn't want to discuss it or (ironically) accuses me of trying to put her in a home so I can have her money

My Dad died quite young, 62, but was sick for 4 years, ,my mam took care of him and now that she is sick, relies on my young brother to help. I told her to come stay with me but she wont. And I know my sisters wouldn't take her, my mam is hard work and as much as I love her, sometimes I don't like her.

For me, I have no intention of having my kids look after me. If I get dementia/Alzheimer, I hope I have a lucid enough moment to realise it before I get very ill and I would take steps to end it.

Likewise, I wouldn't want to live like my dad did for the 4 years of illness. He went from being an independent strong man to one on 24 hour oxygen, couldn't leave the house, dress or wash himself, it killed him. he had no dignity in death and for that reason, I think I would take preventative measures to ensure no one has to take care of me in that condition.

I know that sounds weird, I have no suicidal thoughts in life, but I would feel very strongly about being a burden on others or losing my dignity and independence.

How do I start the conversation without hurting her feelings?
I want to make sure that DM is control of what happens and has choices, but I also want to make it clear that moving in here is not an option.

One of my parents has early dementia the other mobility problems. We help by shopping, gardening and cleaning. They have carers several times every day for personal stuff.
Carers are professionals and know what they are doing.
Don't underestimate how needy and quite frankly demanding your once lovely independent parents can become with age. Also they don't get awkward or stroppy with the carers like they do with us sometimes mainly because of frustration and do what they say and are generally nice and polite to them.
I wouldn't want to care for them full time just as I don't want my DC to give up their lives to care for me.

AstrantiaMajor - my mother was always very vocal about not want g to be a burden to her daughters and how she would have carers. TBH she was very unrealistic about her needs and preferred to let us help her and expected us to be too polite to do anything but pretend she was no trouble. I think that it is vital for older people to accept that they will need their DC's assistance!

Timeforteaplease, if my experience is anything to go by you can't have the conversation. I have cared for 4 elderly relatives. Each one of them was intransigent , insist on wanting to be independent. What they mean is independent of social services, not their put-upon-relative. I am very bitter about the help I had to give them all. They were ungrateful and nasty.

Trying to organise PoA, cleaners, gardeners, carers, people to,shop, people to fix things it was a never ending list of demands. Phone calls to utilities banks, doctors, hospitals. Nothing was ever right, done quickly enough, done correctly or for the right price. The last one died last year and I felt I had been let out of a lifelong prison sentence.

Jimi, home carer costs are paid for by the client if they have savings over 27000. For care homes client pays if they have savings over 23000 (these figures would need to be checked as they seem to move up and down a bit). The house would be taken into consideration and would either be sold or (depending on whether any dependents still live in it) cost of care would be offset against it and paid off when it is eventally sold. Socialservices provide information as do organisations such as Help the aged (they have a helpline). We found that you don't somuch have a single plan for caring for relatives but a series of plans. We've tried everything from MIL living with us and then had to work out a plan b when complex mobility and dementia needs meant that home environment was no longer suitable, even with carers as backup. When needs start to escalate a good care home can sometimes provide more comprehensive levels of care than family or small group of home carers. It's good to talk and have a rough plan so that you don't find yourself in the grip of expectations you can't fulfill but you also need to be able to factor in your own needs too. Be prepared to adapt as new situations arise. Having done it for others there is now no way I'd want my children looking after me when the time comes.

I am hoping to god it isn't needed too much! I don't live near my parents.

If my mum gets t obe needing a home I think I would see if she woudl move to a home near me and my sister s owe could at least visit often. Same with sheltered accommodation

I could not provide 'care' and no could my sister given we are like 3.5h drive away.

Same for Dad but I expect he would be resistant to moving. .

If I ask DM anything about the future she always says "oh just push me under a bus"

My mum says "push me out onto an ice flow" or "take me up to the [local exposed beauty spot] in the winter and leave me"

How do I start the conversation without hurting her feelings?

Maybe have a series of small conversations - have you thought how you'll manage stair when older - or an example where someone hasn't thought about power of attorney and problems that caused - see if you prompt some thought or if she open to talking about such things.

I think if you get a push me under a bus argument - pretty sure that mean they aren't prepared to to think about it or plan ahead.

Jimi, your BIL would very likely have to move out. If he was over 65 the LA couldn't force a sale and he'd be able to remain, if I remember correctly. Transferring the property into his name won't work either, as the LA can arrange for the transaction to be reversed if they have reason to suspect it was done to avoid paying care fees. A lot of older people do this without being aware that it can be unwound.

Osi, yes it's looking that way according to Google.
He has never moved out its his childhood home. Left in the will to dh & bil when he pops off. Therein lies a further issue of bil paying dh his half.

Suki is absolutely correct, you need to consider a variety of options and be prepared to move from one to the other at speed. My mother was admitted to hospital and went from being an independent 80 year old, who more or less looked after herself to being unable to support her own weight, let alone feed and clean herself in a matter of weeks. Obviously something like a stroke can alter a person's needs almost immediately. And plan A goes out the window. I would be very, very careful about letting an aged parent sell their property to fund the building of an annexe or help finance a mortgage or similar. If they later need funds to finance care later on, then the council can take a very dim view of this and class it as deliberate deprivation of assets, If you are intending doing this then make sure you get legal advice, before you proceed.

DM has recently moved to be within reach of us, DMil already lives close ish. I would provide care for them as in helping with shopping and cleaning, company and taking to appointments. I would have them stay with us for a bit if recovering or similar but wouldn't want them to live with us full time.

I can discuss things like this with DM but not DMil.

I've helped DF in the past with one off massive big cleans and declutters and organisation(when DSM died) and then helped arrange a regular cleaner after that. Help with shopping and organisation, moving to more appropriate accommodation, organising medical appointments (and sometimes going too), arranging carers and then arranging a care home.

I would not have DF live with us (even if he wanted to - thankfully never came up), or do any personal care (apart from an emergency) or even regular cleaning. If he became rude/abusive - I would tell him I found him rude/abusive and I was leaving (he was rude/abusive at times before he became elderly btw), and leave.

Same will apply to PIL when the time comes. Will definitely be there for support, organisation, emergencies, a bit of shopping, house moves and errands but not for regular cleaning, home maintenance or care duties. They will need to pay for that themselves and accept that it isn't sensible to run a family home if they physically or financially can't manage it - as will we when our times comes.

My parents are early sixties and are currently trying to downsize. Mum's "must have" list consists of two things - a downstairs toilet (or ability to easily put one in) and potential for a downstairs bedroom. Both are her way of "future-proofing" what they see as being their last home. They intend to stay in their own home as long as possible, paying for carers / cleaners / gardener as required, then if they require more help they have firmly stated they expect me and DB to put them in a home. They've even gone so far as to insist that if they have dementia / Alzheimer's we shouldn't go and visit them once they no longer recognise us. Basically they're determined not to be any kind of burden on us. Their attitude means that I'd actually like to be able to take care of them when the time comes.

In contrast my inlaws, who have some serious health issues that they are failing to follow medical advice about (we've tried all we can to get them to follow advice but all has failed) have a massively entitled attitude. They're not averse to phoning to ask for money to pay bills when weeks previously they've talked about the £50k retirement lump sum they have in the bank. They also have previously demanded DH take weeks off work to help care for them when one of them had taken them self off vital meds and predictably ended up in hospital. They hint - with less and less subtlety - about us being able to afford a bigger house if we move near them (2 hours away) so they could move in and I can be their carer. Neither DH or I can abide spending time with them so this will never happen, though we see it as inevitable that we'll end up funding their old age as they keep spending money on random crap they don't need (20 bug hotels and bird feeders for the garden, a wardrobe of new clothes 2 sizes too small for MIL as an incentive to lose weight, a holiday they paid in full for then decided not to bother going on, etc) and then defaulting on bills.

I think you have to be frank OP - it may be a discussion she wants to have. The clear things she needs to think about:

• Powers of Attorney (there are two, financial and health)
• End of Life agreement - on the internet - how does she want to die/recover/be treated at end of life. Register it with the GP and keep a copy and if she goes into hospital make sure they have a copy.
• Her finances - could she afford more care in her own home when she needs it? Either social service care or live in care from any of the private agencies (though you need to monitor the quality of provision). Could she live closer to you with the same?

Mum doesnt want us to care for her. She says she wants to look after herself and if she can't, she wants to be cared for professionally as she doesn't want to burden us.

My DH and I are prepared to have my parents living with us. I work from home and we could pay for extra support at home. My eldest dsis has a lot of disposable income and would help out. My other siblings aren't in a position to help out financially and we wouldn't expect it.

I don't think my other siblings would be able to cope with having our parents living with them but I have a better relationship with them. The other siblings would provide lots of practical support though like hospital visits, help with housework etc.

I would be very, very careful about letting an aged parent sell their property to fund the building of an annexe or help finance a mortgage or similar. If they later need funds to finance care later on, then the council can take a very dim view of this and class it as deliberate deprivation of assets

Sunnymeg if you build an annex on your house with funds from your parent's house sale for example, fully intending to have them live semi-independently with you and care for them into their old age, but then they have a stroke or their care needs change drastically - why would the council take a 'dim view' of this? We can't always predict whats going to happen, does that mean nobody should use their parents money to assist in trying to care for them at home? Genuine question?

Also - even if they do take a 'dim view' what impact would this have? If you genuinely used the money to house elderly dp's in your property for example, then can they refuse to fund their care when it's needed? What if your elderly dp's say 'fuck it' sell their house and go on a world cruise for a year, spend most of their money and then return home and suddenly get sick. Would the council just refuse to help them?

Are we saying that once you get past a certain age - lets say 60, that any spending of your own assets or money is frowned upon as it should be kept sacrosanct just in case? This really interests me, as my parents are quite young, but already retired. Hopefully they will have a long and happy retirement, and whilst they are very sensible with their money - i'm always encouraging them to spend it and enjoy it. You can't take it with you!

Please please have the conversation sooner rather than later. Encourage her to move to a smaller property/nearer to you while she can.
My parents didn't want to be a burden but refused to move out of their large family home with large garden.
Now they are in their 80's guess who is run ragged trying to help them? My mum has dementia but stepfather won't put her in a home because she 'wouldn't want that' so he is constantly on the phone to me to sort out problems.
Mum gets an attendance allowance but they won't spend any of that on help because they are too tight.
I'm not worrying about my old age, don't think I will make it as I probably will have died of exhaustion by then.

MIL is in a care home and her home was sold to pay for her care. However, she is now so frail that it's paid for by the local authority despite her having savings above the threshold. She has been assessed twice now and had got worse second time and so won't be assessed for another year.

DM has always said she doesn't want to go into a home but doesn't want me to look after her either! That wouldn't be happening even if she wanted me to and I'm not sure what other options there are!