To consider giving "lines" to my 7 year old.

[Originalfoogirl]

We're having a bit of an issue here and I'm trying to find a way of dealing with it.

Our girl is 7, generally pretty well behaved, generally takes a telling and if told "no you can't have that" or "no we can't do that" she just accepts it.

Where we have a problem is, sometimes if we give her in to trouble for something, always pretty minor and the telling off is just a "can you please not do that" she can sometimes lose it a bit and start crying. Mostly it all blows over quickly, but occasionally she will really lose it and it ends up with her just yelling and crying. We've tried all sorts of ways of dealing with it and haven't really found a good one. It all ends with a calm conversation about what just happened and promises (on both sides) to do better next time.

Our current method is to basically let her get on with it and tell her we will talk to her when she stops yelling. It seems to have been working, the last time she only yelled for a few minutes and I thought we had it cracked. But tonight she got out of bed at ten pm with a spurious night time attention request (we've had a few nights of her not being able to get to sleep, which happens from time to time). We refused to pander to it, as it's become a bit of a habit. I told her the last time she asked, we wouldn't be doing it again. She did not like this and right royally kicked off. Shouted, yelled, and even screamed, which is a big no no in our house. She threw the mother of all tantrums and the ignoring thing didn't work, seemed to make it worse. Eventually I told her if I came upstairs, which is what she was insisting I did, it would be to close her door (she hates that) and she would be in her room all day tomorrow. She stopped, went to bed and fell asleep.

So, needless to say, tomorrow we are going to have to have words. She already is off screens because she's had trouble sleeping and I know that can cause sleep issues, so the "no telly" thing won't work. There isn't really anything else I can think of to take away from her, and anyway, that's never been too effective. So, I wondered, would it be weird, or terrible to give her lines tomorrow? Is that all outdated? Do schools still do it? Am I nuts for even thinking about it?

Or can anyone else suggest an alternative? How on earth do you deal with a tantrumming 7 year old who will literally just scream "I just want to talk to you" over and over again. I've tried a couple of times saying "ok, let's talk" and she actually doesn't really have anything to say. It seems to be an attention thing, but seriously, she is the most attended child ever because of her disability.

I have talked to her extensively to see if anything is bothering her. She did have a few sleep issues a few weeks back when a scary story was doing the rounds, But she got over that ok and was sleeping fine. We talk a lot about how she is feeling and sharing our worries. If she is bothered by something she usually tells us.

Ready to be royally roasted - interested to hear whether it's a really terrible idea!

Amelia

I can't think of anything like that, but it's a good tip. I'll put my thinking cap on. We do have the childish behaviour chat with her, but it doesn't seem to register. I think when she loses it, she can't think about it. We are trying to get her to learn some calming strategies but it doesn't seem to work. I tried one of those calm down jar things, that didn't work either.

I do think she might benefit from some counselling, But trying to find a paediatric counsellor who deals with disabilities is really hard. Ed Psych have had some involvement, but only in advising us rather than working with her. They don't have the resources to do preventative work and will only do time with her if her behaviour in school is poor. Which it isn't.

We both did pretty well last night, it was a spectacular meltdown and as time went on, Mr Foo was getting more and more antsy. I played point guard though. He wasn't getting past me 😂 I'm just so aware that us getting angry, only makes the situation so much worse.

If you know that these periods of being unable to get to sleep are short-lived and will go away anyway, then why not just do what you need to do to get through them with the smallest amount of fuss? Refusing to do it leading to performance crying did result in sleep, but only because she'd knackered herself out having a tantrum, so that's not really the way forward.

I'd go in, turn the duvet over, but be increasingly cross: Mummy and Daddy are very cross that you've disturbed us again and we need our sleep so that we have the energy to do nice things tomorrow. Put her off calling out that way.

Why not teach her to turn the duvet over herself?

It would be good if it were something you could do together. Like going out somewhere nice for lunch, or a trip to get hair or nails done (though she might be a bit young for that). Are there any 12a films you've been considering letting her watch soon?

Or it could be letting her make a decision of some sort - like picking what takeaway everyone will have on a Saturday night.

I don't have a 7 year old so I'm struggling to come up with ideas, but I know my 5yo niece would love to go out for an afternoon tea - she thinks it is very unfair that me and DSis go without her.

I think when she loses it, she can't think about it.

I think this is key, at this point she isn't rational so there's no point having incentives or punishment because she isn't engaging the rational part of the brain that might take those things into account. This is different from a manipulative type tantrum (usually involving screaming but no tears) e.g. a kid stamping their feet at the checkout in Sainsbury's because they hope mum will be embarrassed and change her mind. In your case you need to try and understand why she's so upset and how you can help her keep control. Since you've said she's not being manipulative there are clearly deeper issues or underlying stress that's causing the meltdowns. She's displaying this behaviour at home not school because you're her parents and she can trust you to still accept her even when her emotions are scary and unpleasant.

Personally I wouldn't shut the door on her when she's having a meltdown, this kind of loss of control can be scary for the kid too I'd say that I'm here and we'll talk when you're calmer. I know my DD had massive meltdowns up to about 6 and it was pointless to try to reason with her she just needed time to calm down but I'd stay close.

Have you tried keeping a diary to figure out if there is something else going on to make her more susceptible to losing control? If you can figure out an underlying cause (easier said than done) it would be far easier to avoid the tantrums than to calm her down once they have started. By keeping a diary you might notice that (for example) she is less likely to have a tantrum if she has played outside during the day.

I know I'm a million times less angry if I'm doing regular exercise so that is now a priority. Maybe DD has a similar thing you can find.

I have a ten year old with autism. The absolute worst age for her meltdowns was from between the ages of six till ten, she's just calming down now. I know your child doesn't have autism but I am just telling you what I did. Firstly I realised she was scared at night so I got her a night light, she kept calling me up to go and see her so I did whenever she called me I went and gave her a hug and reassured her, I let her have the plush toys on the bed that she needed to calm herself. I never under any circumstances shut her door and isolated her still further. Gradually she got better and although still needs reassurance is not losing the plot nightly as she did before. I do think that those years are a difficult age in both NT children and those with additional needs.

I don't believe children with disabilities of any kind should not be disciplined but it should definitely be taken into account - the frustrations and difficulties they are dealing with that the average child is not will obviously be impacting on their behaviour and how they're developing.

I think you sound terrified of Getting It Wrong and Developing Bad Habits, I actually think that far too many parents are scared of this and it prevents them from parenting their child instinctively.

Noblegiraffe

I hear what you're saying. That has generally been our strategy, giving her reassurance that, yes we'll turn your duvet, now let's have a cuddle, think nice thoughts, off to sleep.

It does generally pass, and I know it will again. But this time it's lasting a bit longer than usual. It's been about six or seven days now (normally 3 days max). And I'm concerned it has become that she is developing a habit. Call out, duvet over, cuddle, sleep. And she has convinced herself she can't sleep without it. She is quite a routine led child (not my doing, she's the one who has organised me!) and I don't want for this to go the same way. Does she need to get back into the self soothing habit she's had since she was a baby? Am I over thinking that? I'm sort of at the "take a horse to water, Cant make her drink" stage. We have given her calming, soothing strategies but none of them are any use apparently. This was why I was trying to look at things earlier in the day which might impact her sleep and reducing screen time. She fell asleep in the car yesterday, that's how tired she is, and of course, that made last night worse!

I did the "this is making us cross" approach for the last three days, told her it was going to have to stop. Last night was really the next step i.e following through on that. We expected some resistance and we got it in bucket Loads! Probably because she was so damned tired 😂.

She can be quite smart at working the system. Because of her disability there are certain things she can't do herself. So, Moving her in bed, going to the toilet, filling her water bottle etc, need us to be involved and we are fine with that. The other day, she was angling to get to come in to my bed. I said no (again, she can become habitual with that) but of course, the usual rules applied about when she could come through. At that point her bottle was completely full. Ten minutes later she came through with an empty bottle, can you fill this up, I'll have a cuddle thanks. I called her on it and she bashfully admitted she had drunk the water just so she could come through. She will always try to outsmart us (And often does!)

Not sure if she tired herself out because of the tantrum. It actually ended a lot easier than I thought it would, at around about the time she's been falling asleep anyway. Maybe she was just filling in time 😆

Userone

Her disability prevents it. She isn't physically capable, we know, we've tried!

I really think the " how to talk so kids listen and listen so kids would talk" is brilliant.

I wouldn't ignore a child upset at night personally. It sounds like you've taken it on as a battle or a challenge rather than seeing what it is she needs. I remember being distraught at night and wanting a cuddle and crying louder and louder thinking eventually my parents would come. I remember it felt like I was being "abandoned" at night. All melodramatic I see now as an adult but as a child I just needed reassurance.

Hmm, I can see both sides here!

I think it is important to remember that she is only 7, and that 7 is the age at which children move from blurring of the lines between fantasy and reality, and move into more concrete understanding of that division, but also the ability to understand abstract concepts.
I often see/read about people talking to 7 year old about things which are quite abstract, and surprised that they don't really get it.

One of the side effects of this is that a lot of kids at around age 7 do become scared of things. They lie awake at night wondering what would happen if.... this is a new thing because age 5/6 they might think what woudl happen if there was a fire, but then they might follow it up with Superman will come and save me, and fall asleep. At 7, they now know Superman isn't coming....

The other thing that happens around this age is that they are very emotional, with very poor understandign of why or what is triggering it. I have 3 kids and this age was the worst for emotional outbursts.

And a third thing that happens is the desire for control and independence versus the desire for reassurance and love.

For me all of the above means that it is totally normal to have emotional outburst/temper tantrums, and they are much harder to understand and deal with than at age 2/3. I think they find it very hard to understand WHY they feel so emotional. And late at night, when they are tired, no consequence for tomorrow is going to work. A tired, emotional brain cannot process logical consequences.

In fact that is important for any child at any age, once a child has 'lost it' and is in melt down, there is absolutely no point in expecting them to stop because of a consequence. The part of the brain that deals with the emotion has massively overridden the part responsible for behavioural control, and they CANNOT choose to stop any more. Of course, you can, later, once calm, say, because you did xx, I am going to remove this toy/screen or whatever, but in the middle of a melt down, telling her there is a consequence is pointless.

dd2 used to melt down every morning before school, over anything small and insignificant. I spent ages being firm, and reinforcing boundaries etc. Then I realised that the only thing that worked was as the melt down started, I stopped everything, and scooped her up for a firm cuddle. She needed a good 5 minute cuddle. then all was fine. I am still not really sure why, but very glas we hit on a solution.

I would not be punishing her for the melt down. Calm quiet consistent. remind her of the rules as she goes to bed, Mummy isn't coming upstairs for duvet, drink etc, even if you shout very loudly, Mummy isn't coming upstairs. (actually if it was me, I would go up. Once. Big cuddle, re settle (make sure there isn't a genuine problem) and then the rules kick in)

First demand for attention, ask - is there a genuine problem which isn't duvet/drink etc? No? Ok goodnight. I am not coming upstairs. Then just stick to it, ignore, ignore ignore. If necessary, repeat the question - is there aa genuine problem that isn't duvet/drink? No? Ok, goodnight.
Don't punish for melt down. You enforce the boundary, she can kick as hard as she likes, you just hold the boundary firm until she has stopped kicking.

MrsGameandwatch

Thanks. There are some of her behaviours which can mirror those with ASD, but not so many we're concerned enough to get her tested. If it's there, it's not affecting her day to day and to be honest, one disability is enough, couldn't face a whole other set of consultants😄

We are pretty good at making allowances for the physical stuff. We know her capabilities and help where we need to but try not to let her use it as an excuse. With Cerebral Palsy, behavioural stuff generally comes from either frustration because of a lack of communication, or because of the feeling of "tight" constantly being there. Communication generally not an issue, she talks incessantly. The tight thing may be there but I would have thought if that was a case, she would have more behavioural problems. Her tantrums are usually, maybe one a month. Sometimes more, sometimes less. We are constantly in the "is that CP or is that an age thing" dilemma and always have been. But maybe I've been looking at it the wrong way. If we think there may be some ASD type stuff going on, looking at strategies it could be dealt with if she did have it could be the way forward. I don't suppose it could hurt. I need to do some reading on that, I think.

You are correct. I wouldn't use the word terrified, but it is always in the back of my mind about developing bad habits. I'm an "ounce of prevention" person and maybe that is stopping the instinctive stuff. But, if my instinct is not to develop bad habits, not sure where I go with that. Certainly I.ve taken heed of the several "chill out" comments I've heard today.

Oh I see. How about setting boundaries for duvet turning. A visual of bedtime routine, stuck up in her room, so bath, snack, fill water bottle once, turn duvet once etc?

Maybe seeing her bedtime routine might help?

Trying to keep up here!

wiggly woo
Will take a look. Also will refresh my mind on the Stuff Ed Psych gave us.
It was a battle. And she is they type of child that if you take it on you'd better not lose. She WILL see a pattern and keep at it. This is why we do generally avoid the battle and usually we're quite good.

Steppemum
That's really interesting. It makes a whole lot of sense. Ignore ignore has been our strategy. Last night it took a lot longer, hence me moving to the "will close the door". Not to isolate, just because A. My ears were hurting and B she came out of her room and said she would come downstairs. That would not have ended well! But I can see how that might feel isolating. She was equally annoyed that we had shut the living room door. It's glazed, so she could see in. This is why I'm not sure she sees it as isolation, just makes it obvious we aren't paying attention. But maybe she does, I'm not 7, what do I know!

Two disabled kids here..... one severely disabled aged 7 but functions at 18-24 mths. One aged 9.
We still use the naughty step or the thinking step! Remove from the situation and give time to think. Time does not begin until they have quietened down.
Used for years now and still works as a calming strategy !

tizzydongue

To give in to trouble = to give her her a telling off. Nothing sinister about it.

Hadn't realised that wasn't a widely used term. Maybe a Scottish thing ?

occadodo

We had mixed results with the naughty spot. She sometimes calmed down but mostly screamed the whole time. We stopped using it when she started school at 5 and a half. Is 7 too old for time outs?

Hi OP, I really don't think that lines are a good idea. It sounds like she lost control of her emotions, punishing that isn't a helpful way of enabling her to develop more self control. Added to which, I am guessing that she hates having her door closed at night because she finds it scary? If that is so you might want to rethink using that as a behaviour management technique. It is a serious breach of trust to do deliberately put her in a situation which you know scares.

Trifle I agree with inthrdesert; think by linked the suggestion is more a consequence. Eg one breaks something one fixes or replaces it, writing on the wall one cleans it. So the punishment not on fits 'the crime' but follows consequently from it.

i'd rather see the not sleeping and 'needing' mum as a firm of communication. So the hit chocolate and time with mum is, rather than a reward for 'bad' behaviour a way to show that the desired communication can happen on the day and be better than the frantic night time communication.

My idea of the journal was not a punishment, it involves writing but could be seen as something positive and a way to expressed concerns to her mum.

OP my dd has autistic tendencies and still has tantrums/meltdowns at 12. The nature of it seems to be she cannot control at the time.

I think it'd be good to work out if this is always a tantrum beyond control or a 'shouting out' in control.

I like AmeliaLeopard idea of special treat. I'd try and build up, no tantrums at night special breakfast treat, special food or activity before school.

My 6 year old gets TV before school some days. It could br short like to watch a movie trailer (ds loves this).

Once you get this established, build up, better treat after 2 or 3 days etc but she had to go for 2/3 days no shouting out. I think you need to break the habit so short easy to achieve goals are needed.

Maybe mix it up, make or easier for you both to win.

When my dd has had trouble sleeping I've told her to get up and tidy her room (not a punishment). Amazingly, she feels quite tired suddenly and says she doesn't need to get up! She is 12.

Good luck.

armadilloestoes
She isn't scared, she just doesn't like it.

italian

Some good ideas. Yes, amazing how miraculous things can change when chores are mentioned. I might suggest she gets a duster and does the skirting boards.

Not sure how to do the reward thing. It makes sense and we've tried it before. I like it being linked to the maturity thing. But, if she isn't doing this regularly, how can this work. She can easily go a week without it happening. Sometimes even a month or two. Or sometimes it's twice a week and we don't know what it's going to be. Rewarding her once a week for something she often manages seems a bit overkill. Plus, I couldn't come up with that many treat ideas! But making it a month seems too long, would lose its impact, not immediate enough. And harsh if she went 29 days and had a single slip up! Hmm, I'll have to think about that.

Incidentally, seems Mr Foo had never heard the "giving in to trouble" phrase either, before he met me. So not a Scottish thing. Maybe a north east Scotland thing. 😂

My grandson has a DVD player by his bed and listens to an audio book after he has had his story and cuddle and the lights are out.
Consequences are difficult as they need to be relevant and immediate. Your threat to come up and close the door worked so you could make that a starting point not an end point.

I think you dealt with the tantrum as best you could have done. I'm not sure there's any need for additional punishment the morning after. More important to hold firm on the bedtime nonsense, keep as calm as you can and remember this too shall pass.

Trifle you mention the adult prison system but firstly there isn't a lot of evidence that the prison system is effective - reoffending rates are huge (the systems that do prevent reoffending always involve positive steps that give offenders skills and an alternative pathway to crime) another use of prison is to protect society from dangerous individuals which clearly doesn't apply in this case.

Punishment doesn't tend to be effective long term because it breeds resentment. Most children understand - you make a mess you tidy it up, you break something your pocket money replaces it etc as a consequence of their actions; It's not a punishment but a way to repair the damage caused. Most children of seven are still keen to get their parents approval.

I don't think children's education and up bringing should be based around what happens in adult prisons, which are, potentially, primarily to protect the public from criminals.

But even prison sentences are given out on the basis of punishment fitting crime. Low level crime - no sentence, maybe fine or community service eyc. Longer prison sentences for worse crimes.