To have sent this message?

[TakesNoShit]

There's obviously a bit of a back story but you should be able to get the gist from the message. ExSIL recently got in touch after three years with the obvious intention of getting my DC's relationship back on track with their DF, her brother, as the DC have refused to see him for several months now. We used to get on well and I was hopeful that she might be able to get through to abusive XH. I was disappointed to find that she just brushed over the very serious issues which I told her about. Anyway, it a long message but was I unreasonable to send it? I'm not normally a confrontational person but her messages to me made me see red:

Hi XSIL. I'm not going to reply on Facebook to your last message but I need to get this off my chest as I'm frankly pretty disappointed about your position on this matter. When you got in touch, I was pleased and hopeful as I know you're a reasonable person and I thought that once you heard my side of the story and realised what was going on, you'd speak to XH and possibly get through to him. All I've ever wanted was for XH to be a good parent because my children deserve that and I thought maybe with your input, he would start being more reasonable. God knows I've tried to get through to him over the years but it makes no difference.

You say you don't want to take sides but the truth of the matter is you should be taking sides: the side of your nieces. I get that you might not be ready to hear it or confront it but the absolute bottom line is that XH is ABUSIVE and is an ABUSER. He abused me for our entire relationship and he still tries to abuse and control me now. I know you all turned a blind eye at the time and excuse me for reaching a place where I won't take his shit any more, but as a minimum, I expect you not to be complicit in his abuse of me and your nieces. I suggest you look up the term 'flying monkey' as that is what you are being at the moment. I get that at the heart of it, you want the girls to have a relationship with XH and hope that if we could just reach a compromise, then it will be possible. But you need to think carefully about what cost having a relationship will have to them. I want you to answer me this truthfully: do you think XH is a good father? Not if he has the potential, but if he actually is a good father right now?

What has annoyed me is the innocuous platitudes of 'it takes two people', 'both have to drop the animosity' etc. I'm sorry, but platitudes do not feed my children, keep them warm, clothed, fed, happy, healthy. Actual parenting does that. There is this implication from your messages that I am somehow complicit in this bad blood between us and I have to also 'try'. Well sorry, but I am already doing my bit AND his bit too. I do EVERYTHING for my children with limited help from anyone else and zero help from him. And I do all this whilst battling a chronic illness. Do you know what it's like when the cupboards are running low and you have fuck all money to feed your kids? What it's like to worry when they start outgrowing their clothes knowing you have nothing with which to buy more? What it's like to be stuck in all the time because you have no money to do nice things? To struggle every fucking day because ALL the responsibility is yours? I guess not because your DH wouldn't ever see you or the boys struggle. Let me tell you, it's fucking shit and scary to be the ONLY provider. So when I tell you that he hasn't helped in nearly a year with anything, hasn't given a penny towards the support of his children, and he responds that he will start paying WHEN he starts seeing them, were you not embarrassed to tell me that like it was an acceptable solution? It isn't. He has an obligation and your nieces are suffering because he doesn't give a shit. That isn't love. That isn't a father. And if you really cared, you'd tell him to forget seeing them until he can do the absolute minimum which is to FINANCIALLY SUPPORT HIS CHILDREN. What would happen if I decided not to spend my money on them? They'd be removed from my care, that's what. Why should it be any different for him? And to add insult to injury, he's living the life of fucking Reilly and it's one big fucking joke to his family. I've seen the memes you've tagged him in: ha ha, XH is an alcoholic who goes out on the piss all the time. Sorry if I'm not able to see the funny side when he's pissing up MY CHILDREN'S money against the wall and snorting it up his nose. It's a fucking slap in the face for me when I'm struggling so much. Aside from that, I have tried and tried and tried with him, yet here I still am, doing everything on my own and still taking his abuse. I deserve to be angry so don't tell me that I should also be trying. Been there, done that for 16 PAINFUL years. You should be telling him to PROVE himself first. Tell him you're not surprised that I'm angry given he does fuck all and our children are missing out. Don't tell me I should keep on taking his abuse 'for the good of the children'. Do you know there isn't a SINGLE occasion where we've spoken and he hasn't levelled some form of criticism of me or my ability as a parent? I don't know where the fuck he gets off trying to imply that I've done anything wrong. I REFUSE to listen to it anymore. Why should I? And then I start getting the same from you! You need to accept and admit to yourself that I've done nothing wrong, I've already tried, and it shouldn't be up to me anymore. WHEN and IF he is able to PROVE that he is a capable and caring father, then I will start believing it. Were you not shocked by the things I told you? Most people are. It's time you placed the blame squarely with the person that deserves it. I know better than anyone how difficult he is but if you love your nieces like you say you do, then be an advocate for them and stand up to him and tell it to him straight. TAKE YOUR NIECES' SIDE.

Well said OP - you're definitely right and should put down how you feel. I assume she may be similar to him and if not, will be on his side in any event as she is his sister, so will probably fall on deaf ears. If that does happen it only goes to show you're better off without either of them, hard as it may be. Stick to your guns because your children will know the truth, even if not yet, but they will one day

Just another thought. If she shows him that email or tells him about it, he's going to be pretty cross do make sure you stay safe op

I think it's a brill email. Sometimes you need to spell it out very clearly as people are idiots when they decide to stick their noses in other peoples business.

I suspect she will not do the right thing and tell her brother to man up or feck off but it should give her food for thought and I wouldn't be holding my breath she will ever be a decent aunt either.

You are showing her you are in control and not taking his shit (or anyone else's for that matter) any more.

You are a force to be reckoned with and your kids have an awesome mum.

I wouldn't let that waste of space near my kids with a barge pole.

Well done be proud of yourself you deserve to be.

The best thing about it is that you never need to look back and regret not saying what needed to be said.

The truth hurts and your xSIL may not accept the truth, but you've said it.

You've done it for your DDs which is for the best of intentions.

Electronic Therapy!

YANBU at all but I don't think I'd have sent it. It's very long and comes across as slightly hysterical. I think given she's his sister rather than the man himself, something shorter and more matter of fact would have been more appropriate.

Contact the CMS and get him paying for his children. It's pretty straightforward.

Sorry you're in such a shitty situation - realise my previous post may have come across as unsympathetic. Just makes me furious these dads that don't pay

go to the cms-if he wants to see his kids he needs to step up

if they dont want to see him he cant be a innocent as she thinks

It's a great e mail but I'm not sure your sil will accept what you are saying.
I hope the penny drops with her.
Why do people ( like her) defend the indefensible?
If my sil told me my brother was drinking excessively and snorting coke and not contributing financially to bring up his children I know whose side I'd be on.
And it certainly wouldn't be dbros!!!

I feel a teeny bit sorry for her!

Like she's taken the brunt of what OP wants to say to her ex!

Tell him the children aren't pay by view .

Thanks everybody for the replies.

Do you know, it felt bloody amazing to send that message. I have been a people pleaser my whole life but I am done. I feel like I'm finally seeing the issues for what they are. And it was incredible to read the responses here. It feels like vindication. This has been one hell of a journey but I'm finally starting to feel as if the hard earned lessons are paying off.

For those that asked, she is aware of the issues XH causes because when she first got in touch, I told her. I might reproduce that message here as it will give a better insight into why her platitudes spectacularly missed the point. I have also started a case with CMS which cost me £20. In 8 months, they've failed to collect a single payment.

She did reply, and I have replied to that which I'll post here:

Hi ExSIL. I want to say first of all that I'm sorry about the timing of my message. I can see from Facebook that you've had a horrific weekend and my message probably topped it off. I'm also very sorry to hear your circumstances are so tough at the moment. My message was not intended as a comparison, I realise that it's not easy for anyone at the best of times.

However, I am not sorry for the contents. I still mean every word. It may have been a tough message to hear as his sister but I think if you really want to help the girls, you first need to understand the issues. I get that you want to stay neutral but ultimately there are only two people important in this situation, the girls. I want exactly the same as you do: what is best for the children. I was very blunt in my message, but for a good reason. I want you to really understand the reality of my situation. To see it without the lens of sibling loyalty.

When you say things like 'it takes two people', 'you need to sort out your differences', it shows me that you don't fully understand what I am dealing with when it comes to him. When I say I have tried, I mean I have tried EVERYTHING with him. But it hasn't changed a damn thing. He is still being abusive towards me. I know the single reason he withholds child support is because he is trying to control me. He absolutely loves to see me struggle. It's his raison d'être. That is the nature of an abuser. Of course the people he hurts in that process are his children but the abuser has such a need to control, they don't care who gets in the way. They hate more than they love.

I don't blame you, it took me a very long time to recognise and understand abuse and abuse tactics. It's ok if you're not ready to confront this yet. However, if you do want to understand better, you can do the Freedom Programme online for free and that should give you an insight into what the true problem is, what impact it will have on the girls and ways you can helpfully deal with him.

Your reply was considered and deserves a proper response so I will take each of your points in turn...

'I have read this and I too am disappointed as I meant the two of you should work together not that you are not parenting'
I'm not sure if you've understood what I was saying in my message. I know you weren't criticising my parenting. You were urging me to make an effort to 'get along' with XH for the girls' sake. What I'm saying is that you are asking for the impossible and placing responsibility on my shoulders when I feel I've already absolved myself of that by already trying.

'my aim is for the girls to do there best and believe you me I know how hard it is to do it alone DH has been struggling with depression for the last 5 years and even contemplated the worse thing yes harming himself so I know how it's a struggle I have been the worker and parent and carer!'
Again, I'm sorry things are so tough for you all but that doesn't diminish the fact that XH makes my life impossibly hard on top of extremely tough circumstances.

'I didn't mean to attend you with anything I wrote but I do believe that the girls are listening to you both and to be honest neither of you have nothing good to say about each other but the kids don't need to hear thatch'
The absolute worst thing about an abuser is that they model that behaviour for their children who are then doomed to repeat it in a well documented pattern that is termed 'the cycle of abuse'. The girls of an abusive father will often select a partner who is also abusive. I should know, my own father is abusive to my mother so it's no coincidence that both me and my sister ended up with abusive men. I want better for my girls. Which leaves me stuck in between a rock and hard place. How do I possibly encourage a relationship at the same time as demonstrating that his behaviour and treatment of us is unacceptable? In any event, the girls know very little about what he's done to me as I try to protect them from most of it. What they do know is what he has shown them.

'I am always here to help in anyway and I'm sorry you are not well I have tried to speak to him but I know he is a selfish fucker'
THIS is the crux of the matter and proves my point. Two things:
a) calling him a selfish fucker is minimising the full extent of what I'm dealing with. Let's call a spade a spade; he is an abuser. Which brings me on to my next point...
b) you can't 'speak' to an abuser. They are not interested in reaching a compromise or working things out. Their only purpose is to control. If you, his sister, whom he presumable loves and respects can't get through to him, then what chance do I have? I am being set up to fail.

'but I myself do not want to lose my nieces in this mess as I feel the family is broken enough my aim is to have the children live a nice and comfortable life all of them! I know you haven't had it easy and I feel for you I have always tried to help you.'
ExSIL, I totally understand why you might feel defensive over what I've written and I know these are hard things to hear but I have taken a lot of time to write what I have because I want the same things as you. I want my children to have a good life. My only aim is to help you understand the issues so you are better placed to have an impact if that is what you want. I am stuck dealing with him either way. I really like, admire and respect you and I am really pleased that they have a decent role model in you and a loving aunt on their fathers side. I wouldn't ever deny them or you a relationship. Just like I've never denied them a relationship with XH.

'I also think that you guys should talk more instead of DD1 passing on messages I know you don't do that but XH does I have no idea how to make him see sense but yes I agree he should pay but your differences with each other should be discussed between you not with the kids'
As above, I can't just 'talk to him'. It doesn't work like that. We cannot resolve our differences because I am not a therapist and I can't change an abusers MO. I don't want to speak to him anymore. I don't want to give him any opportunities to abuse me. I have told him countless times that I only want to deal with him by text but he doesn't listen and refuses to answer my texts, instead he will call over and over until I speak to him. It may seem a benign request to tell me that I should also try, but you need to understand that what you are really asking me to do is to is to expose myself to abuse. That is why it is upsetting.

I am really grateful of your offer to help. My purpose in messaging is to help you help my girls. To understand what we are dealing with, all of us. As a start, what I want to happen is this:

1. I want him to stop calling me. I am happy to deal with him by text or email as that way I can respond to the issues about the children and ignore his unwarranted and hurtful criticism. It also means there is a written record of what has been agreed as he will often unilaterally change plans or deny a conversation has taken place in a well known abuse tactic called 'changing the goal posts'
2. I want him to start paying a decent amount of child support on time and pay a fair proportion of other expenses like birthdays and Christmas. This would demonstrate to me that he is serious about being a good father, is sharing the responsibility more fairly and would reduce a lot of the animosity I feel towards him.
3. I want him to be a good and involved father. Take care of their physical needs properly, like providing clothes that fit, brushing their teeth and bathing them. I want him to take them nice places and keep up to their activities by taking them on his weekends. I want him to listen to their concerns and work with them when they say they don't want to go instead of blaming me.

I don't think these things are too much to ask and hopefully you can see that the solution to our issues is not for me to be more accommodating, more open to communicating, the real solution lies with him. Everything I've mentioned is within his control.

Again, I'm sorry if my message was upsetting to you. I have been dealing with this for 16 long years and I'm tired of rolling over and accepting it. I'm tired of taking the blame for something that is out of my control. Hopefully this has cleared up any misunderstanding and given some ways to work on this problem. At the heart of it, we want the same things.

Wow.

She will definitely regret her messages. I know I would!

What's "wow" about it?
Sil obviously has no clue as to how bad her brother is behaving and thinking that by just talking op can somehow 'fix' it is ridiculous.

He has no intention of changing and op is right to keep her distance. Her girls deserve a dad who puts them first not being used as weapons against their mum.

I think that everything you said is fair. She stuck her oar in and attempted to defend what can never be defended, she should hear how things really are and not how she would prefer them to be. It is easier for her to think both of you are at fault rather than face the truth, but if she is going to interfere then she needs to be made aware of the full truth of what has happened.

I think you are mistaken though if you think a man can be an abusive partner but still ever be a decent father - it just isn't possible. His attitudes will damage your girls even if he never physically harms them. I would cut off all contact with him if I possibly could, not try to facilitate it.

Great message and response.
I hope she gets the message and can help.
But you know it won't make any difference to your Ex behaviour.
Well done though!
Keep going.

I'm probably a lone voice in this, but I think you're being a bit harsh with the sister. It's entirely possible she has no clue about what her dB got up to or has done, or that she hasn't had your perspective. Your messages (whilst I'm sure are accurate) are quite forceful and harsh and I think you might be getting angry at the wrong person. Sil hasn't done anything wrong to you, except from be misinformed. I can totally understand your anger but it seems misdirected here.

I hope things work out for you OP, I would probably stop engaging with the SIL unless you think there is a possibility that she can actually help you achieve your aims (which is probably unlikely to be honest)

Your stories very similar to mine, even down to ex sIL butting in. Great email, but sadly I doubt she will help. It's not her place to change him, but then she shouldn't humour him either. However in my experience ex in-laws often side with their own relatives. They would rather hurt anyone else but them by doing what is actually right and saying it like it is. So they scapegoat you. You become the villain.

I would avoid them all, if he steps up great. If not ignore him. I'm still working on this bit myself!

I think that's a great email, if I had any sense I would read every word and approach my Db differently (if I was her) . You couldn't have been any clearer. even if she takes no notice , it will only because she doesn't want to but at least she knows the truth.

I think its important for you to show your daughters that there are lovely, loyal wonderful men out there and not to settle for abusive men like their dad.

I appreciate the further replies. I completely agree that I am being harsh but I disagree that she doesn't know what he's like because I have told her (I'll repost my first message to her at the bottom).

I almost don't care anymore anyway. She was the one who got in touch and it isn't going to help my DC if I just blithely agree with her. She reinforces his attitude by telling him I need to change too, completely missing the point that I have already done everything I can. Everything I've said to her, I've said to XH and more, so I'm not leaving her to deliver the message.

She is also not totally innocent. She regularly used to host his multiple OW for dinner behind my back but I accepted her loyalty to her brother and remained on decent terms with her despite this. She also attempted to meddle, sending unsolicited messages (which I ignored) when I met my new DP trying to get me to handle my life differently to placate her brother. What I absolutely won't have is her putting her brother's needs above those of my DC. I probably won't ever get through to her but she can take it or leave it. She isn't my concern and if she doesn't want to hear the harsh truth, she can block me on Facebook.

It was her who offered the olive branch by sending a friend request and I think I was pretty gracious in accepting it given everything. I'm also aware that XH is a damaging influence to my girls. I never quite know what is the best thing to do. When my girls stopped wanting to visit him, I supported them in that. However, they very recently wanted to start going again. I feel like I'm in an impossible situation having to make this decision.

This was in response to her plea to me out of the blue after several years of no contact, to try to get their relationship back on track:
'Hi ExSIL. I appreciate what you're trying to do - trust me, I've tried myself. I also understand that you're only getting half a story and that XH is your brother so there will obviously be loyalty there. I have absolutely no problem with you, DH (I miss nothing about my relationship with XH except for my friendship with you guys) or the boys and would love for the girls to be able to maintain a relationship with you all. There have been a few times where I've wanted to tell you what is going on, to see if you can get him to see sense and I did message you out of desperation that one time but he told me you said you never wanted me to contact you again and I've always felt bad putting you in that position so I've left it.

But here is the other half of the story which I doubt he's bothered telling you:

1. He hasn't helped me financially since May last year. He's paid no maintenance, not helped with clothes or uniform, no helping with presents or parties or xmas. Nothing. Not a penny. I've had to do it all on my own even when I was out of work and really struggling. I even paid the £20 to start a case with CMS out of desperation. They've written to him loads and called him but he still won't pay. Even before that, when he was kind of paying, he would always pay late and would agree to go halves with me for birthdays and xmas and then wouldn't give me the money back. He's carried on going out on the piss, taking his girlfriends on weekends away, going on holiday and I've just had to accept it. He even had the audacity to have a go at me for going on a rare weekend away with DP, saying 'I thought you had no money'.
2. I have concerns about the way he looks after them. -The girls have told me that he doesn't brush their teeth and there isn't a toothbrush for them at his house. DD1 had such bad tooth decay that she had to have a tooth pulled out as she kept getting abscesses. One time when she was on antibiotics, which I had to drive to -nearest city- for as an emergency appointment, he forgot to send it back home. When I messaged him, he sent someone to my house with it and they left it outside and it was ruined (it needed refrigerating) as I was out.

• he puts them in clothes and shoes which don't fit and never returned the clothes I sent them in. This really used to piss me off since he wasn't helping to buy the clothes! One time he sent DD2 home stinking of piss. DD1 told me he had nothing clean for them so fished something out of the dirty laundry. He'd taken them bowling so she was out in public like that.
• they tell me they are bored at his as he doesn't take them anywhere (except his mates playgym as its free for him) and all he does is shout at them.
• DD1 came home once asking me what porn was. I was pretty shocked that she had heard that word so asked her where she'd heard it and she told me it was on the frequent search terms on the Google home page on the laptop XH bought for her. I felt a bit sick at that to be honest. It's also a safeguarding concern.
• he's had a few girlfriends since we've been separated, and without fail, they've all been introduced within a couple of weeks. This isn't fair on them when they inevitably break up a short while later. Particularly concerning was the episode with C since she has a history of drug and alcohol addiction. Still, he was happy to introduce the girls just a couple of weeks after he started seeing her and she fucked off to rehab just a couple of months later. To add insult to injury, he's very vocal to the girls about how he hates DP and at one time went round telling people he is a paedophile because he made them some loomband bracelets?!?! This has been really damaging to the girls who really like DP (I wouldn't be with him if they didn't) and they feel torn loyalties.

3) there have been times where he's unreliable, turning up late, changing plans, using contact as leverage, only having one of the girls and driving off without the other 4) despite me trying to be amicable with him, he is frequently abusive, threatening and nasty to me. I can send you screenshots of the vile things he says to me and my girls have to listen to it as he has no problem saying this stuff in front of them. I've told him to remember that he's teaching them how men treat women, but years later, nothing has changed. Just this weekend I heard him berating me on FaceTime to DD2. This particularly pisses me off as I know I'm a good mum, everything I do, I do it for the girls. I don't know if he's told you but I was diagnosed with Hashimoto disease two years ago so I'm doing it on my own when I'm really ill. Instead of thanking me and giving me credit, he treats me like shit. 5) despite the fact that he blames me, it's actually the girls who say they don't want to go anymore. There are times when I'm desperate for a break but they refuse to go. I don't just mean they say no, they actually scream, cry and plead with me not to go. One time he turned up at my house screaming at us through the door and the girls were in hysterics as he was frightening them. Other times I've suggested ways he can encourage them to want to go but he gives me abuse for my efforts and says the girls have to change their attitude?!?! I actually think that DD1 has higher functioning autism and sensory processing disorders which I've been trying (and am still trying) to get a diagnosis and help for. I think this is adding to DD1's reluctance as she's very black and white about things and she still hasn't forgiven him for not giving her the birthday money he promised her. In an ideal world, I'd be able to ask his help to sort this out and create a structure between both our houses but he point blank refuses to work with me as he just wants to make out like everything is my fault. He's incapable of recognising his own fault or changing anything.

There's loads of other things that have happened over the years but you get the picture I'm sure. I tried really hard for a long time to make this work but there comes a point where you realise you can't make someone else do the right thing so you give up. I don't know what else I can physically do to change things. For my own mental health, I've had to just detach and accept that I'm in this on my own. Quite frankly, half the reason I stayed with him despite the affairs, financial and emotional abuse, the selfishness and lack of help with the girls is because deep down I knew he didn't have it in him to be an equal parent. I know he loves them in his own twisted way but that alone doesn't make him a good parent. He's far too selfish. He sees child rearing as women's work and he should just get the good bits.

I'm sorry to have to lay it all out so bluntly but I've just had enough. He makes my life so much harder then goes round complaining that I'm the one stopping him seeing his children. People don't know the half of it. I do appreciate you taking the time to message though. If you think you might be able to get him to see things from a perspective that isn't his own 'poor me' view then I'd be happy to see it. Ultimately it's the girls that suffer.'

I'm sorry but it sounds like you're using her messages as some sort of therapy session.

I think you should just block her and move on with your life.

I don't agree Mags
She is trying to make the OP half to blame and expecting her to compromise and accommodate an abuser.
You do NOT compromise with abusers.
She was the one who messaged so she gets told the way things are.
Nothing at all wrong with that!

Quite possibly MadMags, but if I am, so what. She messaged me out of the blue urging me to 'remember that I loved him once', 'think of the children', and 'think about what they're missing out on as a parent'. She might not have meant to, but she completely insulted me! I'm the only one parenting them at the moment so it's a bit rich of her to try to appeal to me on that basis. Also, I am reminded daily that I once loved him, that's why I'm in this situation, still putting up with the same shit nobody wants to pull him up on. She is of no use to me or my girls if she wants to pretend that I am in any way the problem.

I would quite like to block her and have nothing to do with any of them but unfortunately, she is the only reasonable link to that side of my DC's family. I am acutely aware that having an abusive father is damaging, but so is not having a link to an entire side of your family and heritage. So I have facilitated my DC visiting their aunt without XH as that is what she wanted and they were happy enough to go. Unfortunately, she's now using this opportunity to guilt me into taking more of his abuse. I think she needed to hear that whether she listens or not.

I'm not judging you, OP. It just doesn't sound very healthy for you.

She might be a link to the family but she doesn't sound like a reasonable one.

Frankly, I'm not sure if I'd be encouraging a link to that side of the family.

Blood doesn't always equate to good to be around!

He is clearly not willing to/capable of looking after the dc properly, so imho it is doing more harm than good to let him anywhere near them. You are flogging a dead horse if you think he is capable of being better.

As for sil, you have been way beyond tolerant with her - she has been for cosy dinners with him and multiple ow? She has enabled his bad behaviour and her emails now are more of the same.