Girls and unisex or girls and boys football team

[r0tringLover]

I'm in a position of influence in a school and recently needed to debate with parents whether there should be continue to be a boy-only football team.

I guess the sport is irrelevant except that football is a male-dominated sport, especially in schools.

We have several girls teams which compete against other girls teams. The rules in the local league don't actually appear to exclude girls from the boys team but are clear that boys cannot play for the girls teams. I feel that this is about following the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter. Not a single team we compete with has a girl playing with the boys. I'm sure a large part of this is due to the equally good girls league with plenty of fixtures and camaraderie.

Many parents wanted the girls to be classed a closed group whereas the boys as a free-for-all Perhaps unsurprisingly, they were the same parents who will defend the need for girls to have spaces reserved for them.

Was I being unreasonable defending the need for boys to have space free from girls and any politics involved should girls be picked over boys? I'm rarely unsure about my opinions (for better or worse) but on this occasion I am doubting myself.

Even if your talking about primary teams, the more talented girls will be better served in mixed teams.

I think the default should be mixed teams. In practice, they will be heavily dominated by boys and so that's the practical justification for a girls-only team.

How is it acceptable to be sexist towards boys? They should both be treated equally & whatever one gets, the other gets the same!

This isn't sexist towards boys. It's about allowing girls to play football at a higher level. It's not always the case that to be fair, things should be equal

science has found that boys profit from being in schools with girls, while girls profit from being on girls' only schools.

Actually, recent research suggests single sex may be slightly beneficial for boys too, but not as much as for girls.

However, education is a different matter, because in that case both schools would (in our society!) be equally valued. The asymmetry which some want in football arises because the all girls team will not be treated as seriously as the all boys or mixed.

I can see the arguments both ways. If the girls teams were teated with equal respect to all boys teams, then I'd say sure, obviously have it all nice and symmetrical. But given that is not the case - as with most adult sports - then its not clear that this is truly fair. Its the old 'equality v equity' thing, I suppose.

But given that is not the case - as with most adult sports - then its not clear that this is truly fair. Its the old 'equality v equity' thing, I suppose

Is inequality in adults sports a reason to discriminate against children though?

No, inequality in kids sports is the issue here, the same as in adult sports.

"I think when it comes to football you don't need protected spaces for boys."

I don't think boys need protection from girls, but I do think that less able or less dedicated boys need a space in which they can enjoy sports for the sake of participation (instead of achievement) just as much as girls do.

I've watched a great many primary sports days in my time, and I really believe it's more beneficial to divide them at that age by ability and commitment- rather than genitalia.

Tbh I think people are looking at it backwards.

The FA rules provide for mixed teams up to the age of 16. The teams are usually made up wholly or mostly of boys, but some girls will also be good enough.

The question then is, is there a valid reason for having a girls-only team too. I think there is, because realistically there won't be that many girls on the mixed team. I don't think it's then fair to ban girls, who are there on merit, from the mixed team. Is there a similar need for a boys-only team, separate from the mixed team? Probably not.

If you really think there should be no special treatment for girls, shut down the girls team.

A girls team, a boys team, and an "elite" team. Play the elite team and the boys team in the boys league (which doesn't explicitly exclude girls), and the girls team in the girl's league.

If a girl makes it into the elite team she deserves to be playing against the best teams. I wouldn't care about the spirit of the law.

VestalVirgin

So, it would probably be most beneficial to the boys to have a girls' and an unisex football team.

Only if you see numeracy, literacy etc as being the same as extra-curricular sports (clearly they aren't).

But, sure, if it feels fair to you to treat all children the same even though the outside world is very much not equal, keep the boys only team.

I will. I'm a great believer in treating children fairly and though a lot of hard work I'm in a position to enforce my ideas.

From your belligerent tone you're clearly against a boys only team but without good reason. What are your reasons? I say this as despite your final and penultimate sentences seemingly being contradictory.

CosyNook

No. This is a school team.

sibys

I think the default should be mixed teams. In practice, they will be heavily dominated by boys and so that's the practical justification for a girls-only team.

Not to my mind. It's telling boys that they're less important than girls as well as telling the girls to throw their hand up in the air and say 'we're a bit shit and need special measures'. In your situation there would be boys who aren't good enough for the mixed team, better than the girls team but who aren't allowed to play. Girls who aren't good enough for the mixed team get a second chance.

budgie

It's not always the case that to be fair, things should be equal

See, I believe in being fair. Fairness doesn't mean holding people to the same standards, it means giving everyone an equal opportunity and as my reply to Sybis attempted to say, a mixed and girls team doesn't give equal opportunity. Giving a group a leg-up based on preconceived ideas is pointless.

Okay, then shut down the girls team.

I don't think boys need protection from girls, but I do think that less able or less dedicated boys need a space in which they can enjoy sports for the sake of participation

Which is why it would be beneficial to have a mixed team (for the best players of either sex) , then a girls team and a boys team for the weaker players. Of course, that's quite a lot of work for most primary schools to provide, so may not be possible

The girls team will always be 'lesser' if you keep creaming off the best girls and putting them on the boys team, and girls' football will continue to be viewed as secondary if the girls are aspiring to be on the boys' team. I think an A team and a B team is the best idea, both mixed.

sibys1

But there's a girls league which we do rather well in and many children benefit from. What would be the point of that? I'm old enough to have stopped cutting off my nose to spite my face.

What do the boys and girls want?

I believe in being fair

So is it fair to hold a talented footballer back because she's a girl. Which is what can happen when there isn't a mixed team.

The FA is very much in favour of mixed teams up to the age of 16, and most kids football clubs (IME) will provide both a mixed team and a girls team. In practice, you rarely see a girl in the mixed team, but if a girl is at the same standard as the boys, she is entitled to play with the boys. Which is how it should be if we are ever to improve the level of girls football in this country.

I agree with the rationale of sibys1

The ideal scenario is to have the best football team as possible, picked solely on merit.

The second move is to then look at the makeup of that team and identify which groups of people are not fairly represented from an equality POV. Most obviously, girls. Perhaps short people, whatever. Then consider setting up teams to allow the underrepresented groups to play.

Its always the same to be honest, females didn't get equality so now they are it has to become over and above so eventually the males will be crushed! Boys need their self confidence too! - Aren't the figures that men are more likely to die of suicide!!!!!!!

I think an A team and a B team is the best idea, both mixed

The problem with that is that both teams are likely to be boy dominated. We need more opportunities for girls to play football, not less .

Yes, I don't think you should actually cut the girls' team. I was being facetious.

Mixed teams are the default (per the FA rules and as they should be).

The policy reason for having a separate league for girls is that, in practice, the vast majority of girls will not make the cut for the mixed league. 'Mixed' teams are often 100% boys.

There simply isn't the same level of need for a boys-only league. Not many boys miss out as a result of leagues being mixed.

That said, if you end up with enough boys who aren't good enough to make the mixed team, to make a boys-only team, then go for it.

I think it should stay complete seperate. There's room for both girls & boys teams.

lozzy You think females have reached equality in the footballing world?

CosyNook

Sausages in the refectory!

Really, I don't think any primary children are capable of giving real reason to any opinion about this: lets face it, not all posters so far have been!

Some children in year 6 would love the idea of sexually attractive (to them) players on their team. Some haven't yet noticed these 'feelings'. Some relish single-sex activities and some haven't noticed the differences between boys and girls. Some have noticed differences but aren't mature enough to explain why they feel the way they do. These are KS1 and KS2 children.

nb. KS1 train in mixed groups and compete against each other in mixed teams. Nothing outside of the school.

MaidOfStars

Except the underrepresented should not be physically under-developed or short or weaker, it should be female only at the cost of less able males, according to many posers.

lozzylizzy

I really have no idea what point you're making.

budgiegirl

Yes, hence the girls team. We can't have infinite mixed teams to allow everyone a go. There'd be a lack of competition. Instead we have A and B for both sexes. As you move up in age, the inclusivity gives way to ability.

On a practical level: my DD used to play in a mixed team. It wasn't football, it was a different sport and we are talking secondary school age.

She didn't enjoy the mixed team because the boys would never pass to their female team-mates. Luckily, it didn't totally put her off and she stayed with the sport. Anyone who was any good left the Junior teams early and went to the respective men's/women's teams.

I don't know whether it's simplest to pander to their sexism. did you note in the OP "Not a single team we compete with has a girl playing with the boys." go boys-only or force them into playing properly in mixed teams.
What's the important thing: winning the cup or training the DC to become decent sportspeople?

Basically, you're looking to ban girls from mixed teams because girls-only leagues have been set up as a response to the practical problem that the majority of girls aren't good enough for the mixed teams.

r0tringLover
Out of interest, are the girls teams generally less talented than the boys teams? Do you have any girl that is streets ahead in talent than the rest of her team?