Girls and unisex or girls and boys football team

[r0tringLover]

I'm in a position of influence in a school and recently needed to debate with parents whether there should be continue to be a boy-only football team.

I guess the sport is irrelevant except that football is a male-dominated sport, especially in schools.

We have several girls teams which compete against other girls teams. The rules in the local league don't actually appear to exclude girls from the boys team but are clear that boys cannot play for the girls teams. I feel that this is about following the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter. Not a single team we compete with has a girl playing with the boys. I'm sure a large part of this is due to the equally good girls league with plenty of fixtures and camaraderie.

Many parents wanted the girls to be classed a closed group whereas the boys as a free-for-all Perhaps unsurprisingly, they were the same parents who will defend the need for girls to have spaces reserved for them.

Was I being unreasonable defending the need for boys to have space free from girls and any politics involved should girls be picked over boys? I'm rarely unsure about my opinions (for better or worse) but on this occasion I am doubting myself.

sibys1

What you and I appear to be saying is that "is for girls to be given the opportunity to join the 'boys' team, if they're good enough to do so."

I have gone slightly further and pointed out that they wouldn't just be put on the team they would have to train, then be a sub then play full matches. (match fitness, learning set plays, team formations etc)

What I have objected too, is that the "better" player, with no checks and measures will just be put on to the team. (As titchy, seems to think)

And going back to the OP having this 'phased' change would also stop most of the complaints about girls being on the team.

do you not feel that you are being unfair to these girls by not allowing them to play for the 'boys' team? You're effectively holding them back because they cannot play at the level their talent dictates.

No. One of them is held back more by not playing with people in upper secondary. When I say 'held back', that's of course in the context that they are children kicking a ball around.

I imagine by law boys and girls who identify as the opposite sex will be allowed to play for the team they feel they match.

Yes, MN hates trannies. I get it

But girls don't participate anywhere near the levels of boys hence the need for a single sex team.

Why? They could all be mixed and 'set' by ability. As long as there's a team for everyone... Are you saying that girls need single-sex space away from boys who want to ruin it for them? I can't see the logic.

Boys can be boys with boys in lots of other forums and arena, they do not need that specifically in the football team...

Which? Scouts? Cubs? Any argument for mixed football teams applies equally to other sports ie. the need for girls only and mixed.

It's saying we recognise girls don't participate as much as they'd like in this sport and we'd really like to address that.

I can't find any figures to support that. I don't mean the numbers of boys and girls participating but any showing girls who want to play but don't because of mixed teams.

I'm guessing you have boys?

Actually, I have more girls than boys. Around 500 girls and 450 boys! Are you suggesting I'm lacking the EQ to empathise?

Of course ideally you would have 3 teams, mixed, girls and boys but then it's about whether there is enough interest to justify it.

There is. As I mentioned earlier, we'd be the only school fielding a mixed team. That seems to me to be rewarding more able boys and girls with their own team and lumping the less able together at the bottom.

Should women be allowed in mixed gyms if there are women-only gyms nearby?

Yes. If a gym had been for men though, they shouldn't demand entry when there's a women-only gym nearby and especially not when they're so adamant that their gym needs to remain women only.

What about the girl who doesn't want to play with the girls team.

What about the boy who doesn't want to play with the boys. Should he have to play with them because he's in possession of a willy even though his ability is more on a par with the girls team.

Why is it terrible for a boy to lose a place to a girl when he might equally well have lost his place to another boy?

Because the girl could have stuck with the girls team and been picked. She had other options but he didn't.

It's a shame the OP, who is in a position to make a difference with girls' participation at her school, is choosing not to do so, and rather worrying she doesn't really understand the problem

Not sure what the passive-aggressive strikethrough was for. I understand the problem. I just think it's not a black and white area hence asking for opinions here. And one thing I would like to say is that we have just shy of 20% more girls playing football (signed up to clubs and teams) in the primary school than boys. It would be unfair for me to take the credit but I don't need to do anything at my school.

The school has decided not to let girls join.

Yes, as has every other school we play against. We even had to get clarification as to the rules.

All that I, titchy and others want is for girls to be given the opportunity to join the 'boys' team, if they're good enough to do so.

But not for a boy to join the girls if they aren't good enough for the mixed because girls-only teams are positive positive-discrimination.

This isn't about that buggering boxes and fence equality vs blah blah nonsense. You've giving the box to the tallest at the expense of the shortest because the tallest is a girl and therefore has the opportunity to stand on whatever box best suits her and the short boy has to give her his box and apologise for the patriarchy and acknowledge his internalised misogyny and micro-aggressions

" This isn't about that buggering boxes and fence equality vs blah blah nonsense. You've giving the box to the tallest at the expense of the shortest because the tallest is a girl and therefore has the opportunity to stand on whatever box best suits her and the short boy has to give her his box and apologise for the patriarchy and acknowledge his internalised misogyny and micro-aggressions "

This! Absolutely this!

A little while ago there was a thread by a MNer who had set up a very popular boys only craft club. One parent complained that their daughter couldn't join, despite there being other mixed craft clubs available and the venue said they would withdraw the hall hire from the club unless they admitted girls.

Boys are simply not allowed boy only spaces, even when it would help them participate in a female dominated activity.

What I have objected too, is that the "better" player, with no checks and measures will just be put on to the team

Presumably the girl would have played for the girls team first, so her potential would already have been spotted. So it's not a case of 'no checks and measures'.

Why? They could all be mixed and 'set' by ability. As long as there's a team for everyone... Are you saying that girls need single-sex space away from boys who want to ruin it for them? I can't see the logic.

Then maybe you don't have as much understanding of the problem of girls playing in a male-dominated sport as you think you do.

It isn't male dominated at my school. 1/5 more girls than boys. Keep up dear.

There is no age, the FA changed it from 16 to 18 either last year or the year before. However it does raise a few questions of strength and development .

I run a football club, and we do have mixed team, however once they reach about 11 or 12 most of the girls prefer to be in a team of girls, and leave to go to a girls team and that down to a number of reasons, be that personal, preference or development.

most of the girls prefer to be in a team of girls
That's probably true, most girls would prefer to be in a girls team at that age. But what about the talented girl who can hold her own, both physically and by ability, with boys. Should she not be given the opportunity to be stretched, to play to the best of her ability?

It isn't male dominated at my school. 1/5 more girls than boys. Keep up dear

Which is great, and shows why it's important to provide a girls team to allow girls to enter the sport of football in a safe and controlled environment, without being put off by boys in a male-orientated sport.

But I still think you are holding back the girls of higher ability by restricting them to a girls only team.

Be a cheerleader for girls in sport, so many give up in their teenage years, encourage them to be the best they can be. So what if other schools don't have girls in their higher ability teams? Buck the trend, be forward thinking, look at the bigger picture. Set a great example by putting a girl in the top team if she's good enough, maybe others will follow. How do you know that other schools don't do it because 'nobody else does'.

And please don't try to tell me that football is not a male dominated sport.

What I have objected too, is that the "better" player, with no checks and measures will just be put on to the team. (As titchy, seems to think)

I never said that at all....

OP I meant you sound like a parent of boys given your lack of understanding of why girls won't participate in larger numbers in a mixed football team. You simply don't understand the issues girls have. Which is disappointing given your position.

Having said that you now say you have enough interested kids to have all three teams so I'm not sure why you posted. Just make sure the mixed team is picked solely on merit.

The problem we had when DS1 and DD were at primary is they took the mixed approach with a full inclusive mixed team regardless of abilities but also ran girls only clubs. The opportunities for boys were very slim not just for football but all after school activities. The keen footballers joined the local club and a very talented boy who had been spotted by a premiership club had never made it off the schools waiting list (a set number from each year group).

Mixed teams until year 7, then boys and girls teams.

If the girls team isn't great at school try and get her into a club ladies youth team.

Fwiw dd is the only girl on her school team. She played yesterday against an all boys team. The parents resent her being there, so do the opposing refs. She was tackled yesterday and went down. The ref said "if you think I'm going to let you off for being a girl you are wrong. If you go down again you are off the pitch"

Wanker.hes the head of the opposing school as well!!

I don't know why there's so many posters arguing amongst themselves about the fairness of a girl taking a boys space based on ability. I don't think that's what the OP has an issue with.

Think of it like this:
So little Johnny and Mary both love football but they aren't especially great at it and neither of them made the mixed team which was picked based on ability. Both kids would really like to join another team more suited to their ability so they can continue to get better but the opportunity is only available to Mary because she has a vagina. Little Johnny just has to suck it up.

I completely agree that ^that isn't fair and I don't see how that apparently fits in with the box/fence analogy either

I also agree that a young boy might see that set up and think boys are less important than girls. It's all well and good saying that that's not really what you're saying, that you're just 'recognising that girls don't participate as much' but would a child see it the same? Particularly when there already seems to be more girls than boys playing? I doubt it.

I don't know what's going on with the italics there.

budgie

I'm not sure if the patronising tone was intended.

I suspect most boys would prefer to be in a boys team at that age too but that seems to be unavoidable collateral damage according toy ou.

Is that single girl more important than the wishes of 20 boys? As there are more

I can set a great example by treating the girls teams as seriously as the boys. Making sure they're well supported, celebrated and encouraged.

You (and others) are making sense and I'm taking opinions on board but

a) I (we) have bucked the trend in a male-dominated sport
b) I don't believe in supporting one group at the expense of another
c) I don't want to remove something from the boys when we're already clearly encouraging girls into the sport

titchy

I've been vague-ish about my position. I understand issues girls may have which is why, in my position, I've created an environment where female participation in football is higher than that of boys, the robotics club last year only had one male participant and in the 6th Form bake off, there were far more male entrants than female.

I don't think you quite understand the complexities of the issue here. We have more than 3 teams. In one age category there are 2 girls teams and one boys due to demand. The boy and girl teams are equally well funded and supported. The have the same number of fixtures in a season. There is no inherent disadvantage to a girl being in a single-sex team: they are not treated as second fiddle to the boys.

I think single-sex clubs are important from KS2 onward. Socially and emotionally, not simply from a get X into Y activity point of view. My professional interest in sports is the side-benefits like team-work, tenacity, being a good winner/loser etc. I don't really care about actual sporting ability. The clumsy dolt with 2 left feet can get as much (if not more) from sport as the naturally physical children.

Remember that, contrary to the part of my post that no one is contending, there is no girls only team in KS1. It's all mixed and this doesn't put the girls off. Perhaps it's you who lacks some understanding of what works in practice as opposed to from behind a keyboard.

I'm not sure why you posted

Okay. I'll clarify my position.

I think girls only teams benefits girls in some cases.

I think boys only teams benefit boys.

I wonder (and this is the point of my post) if the questionable* benefits of a mixed top-ability team are more important than the benefit to the boys of a boys only team. This is primary football so I disregard all nonsense about 'holding her back'.

*I say questionable as I'm not entirely sure the single girl (however nice the other 10 boys were) would want to be in the 'mixed' team. Does she then get a choice as to where she plays?

Really sorry if this has been mentioned before

My youngest used to love football but was fairly crap at it...did his best

Could you do a mixed team of the very best footballers

Then a girls team and a boys team

Are you only allowed to field one of each team?

Our senior school has different levels of football teams....all boys, girls sport tends to be overlooked in the school

Sorry lover crosspost

I can set a great example by treating the girls teams as seriously as the boys. Making sure they're well supported, celebrated and encouraged.

Brilliant. Fantastic. I wholeheartedly applaud you.

Except they aren't an isolated team are they? They play in a league with other teams and other refs etc. And I bet the girls teams don't have the same level of support when they play matches. Have all the arsehole refs who take piss out of girl players been weeded out of your local league? Your county league?

The inherent disadvantage to girls is that the girls team is likely to be weaker, so the talented girl can't compete with equal ability players.

And I bet the girls teams don't have the same level of support when they play matche

I bet they do. Many schools around us have female and male dominated sports such as field hockey, netball, football and rugby, as well as more split ones such as basketball and aquatics. These teams get as much funding as the boys.

Have all the arsehole refs who take piss out of girl players been weeded out of your local league?

Yes.

so the talented girl can't compete with equal ability players.

Yes she can and does outside of school. I still think you're missing the point as to the purpose of football in primary schools.

I work at a school for privileged and lucky children. I'm aware that not all schools / clubs / teams can provide in the way we can.

We absolutely agree that single-sex teams have benefits but the difference is you think only girls need or deserve it.

r0tringLover

I certainly didn't mean to be patronising, I apologise if it came actoss that way. I assume you didn't mean to be either, when you told me to 'Keep up, dear'!

I appreciate that you do a lot to encourage the girls in football. But I do find it frustrating that you are determined that those girls who have a high ability aren't given the oppotunity to be the best they can be. Just because , it seems, nobody else does. Or because it might bump a boy of lower ability off the team.

There's no fair, or easy, answer to this. But I do think that on this occasion, positive discrimination would be a good thing.

I, too, can't really understand why you came on here to as AIBU? If you'd already made up your mind to carry on with things the way they already are.

If you have a daughter who is a good player I would recommend looking for a local ladies side with a youth division. Don't bother with school teams unless they are outstanding.

As long as the girls teams have equal oppertunities as the boys teams, i think a boys team and a girls team is the way to go.
IF however it is like it was at my school, where there aren't enough girls for a full team, or there isn't an active girls league (There were only 3 schools with girls teams when i was at highschool, we had one tournament then it all got cancelled) that means theres no competition, then there needs to be a mixed team or teams based on ability.
Girls should have equal access as boys do, naturally there will be less girls interested in football, but if there are girls interested, they should be able to play. If there is one girl who is clearly very talented who isn't being challenged or being able to play to her ability in the girls team and she's as good as (or possibly even better) than some of the boys in the boys team she should be allowed to join.

We've got an 8 year old girl on our team. She's currently the best player, by far. Much better than all the other boys.
Presumably in the future, she may want to join a girls team. There are some fab ones as she gets older. The Arsenal Ladies team is re known as being superb. But, atm there are limited girls teams for her to choose from.
So, we intend to hang onto her for as long as possible!!

naturally there will be less girls interested in football,

Not 'naturally'. Culturally - in the US 'soccer' is seen as a girls' game, apparently. And at the OP's school, they are getting plenty of girls, which is great. If all/more were like hers, and if female sports teams - at all ages - were treated as seriously as male ones, there would be no problem with having just separate b/g teams.

I assume you didn't mean to be either, when you told me to 'Keep up, dear'!

I definitely did! It'd been a long morning... sorry.

I, too, can't really understand why you came on here to as AIBU? If you'd already made up your mind to carry on with things the way they already are.

I haven't made up my mind and if I had, I'm always open to having it changed and that's why I came here. To see if my mind was changed. It hasn't been yet but I've certainly been given food for thought.

My thoughts are less about a boy being bumped off and more about having boy and girl spaces. I've said so a few times.