AIBU to ask how any barristers out there cope with their work + family?

[user1488204592]

Hi all-

Long time user but new account for this (couldn't name change because I can't remember password!) I would really love to become a barrister (definitely not crime) and am working towards doing so.

I love the self-employed aspect coupled with the ability to work from home. I only want to have a small practice, I am not overly ambitious and am not the type to try for silk or anything like that. Ideally, I want to be able to go into chambers once every couple of weeks and complete the majority of my work from home, is this at all possible?

Could any ) barristers give me the real inside scoop? Is it as flexible as I think? Will I be able to spend time with my young family and work as a barrister?

So AIBU to ask what it's really like to work as a barrister with a family?

Thanks

Babyb, maybe they assumed you'd mention any difficulties? If I am ever over running I would say around 3.30/4, I need 5 mins to check nanny is ok to stay late (& I've done the same for anyone appearing before me). Never been an issue (& generally has the effect of speeding things up )

Staff:
Cook/Housekeeper
Cleaner
Nanny

I was 11 years call when I had my first child and so was in a better position to dictate the terms when I returned to chambers. In fact my practice improved after I had children as I stopped travelling all over the country and started doing better paid work. I worked part time until my DC started school. I am now in court 1-3 days a week and the rest of the time I do paperwork at home. But I work in an area where I can do this. I know those who work in crime and family (which is more court based) have found it much more difficult once they have had had children.

Babybarrister I actually raised another barrister's childcare arrangements on her behalf once when we were sitting late. She had mentioned them at the start but the judge had forgotten. He was mortified when I reminded him.

My DH is a barrister and is in court maybe 2 days a week, and the rest of the time he mainly works from home. I've recently taken on a promotion at work so he's had to step up more and do more of the drop offs and pick ups at school and nursery, which he is really happy to be able to do - he would rather work later into the evening but have some time with his kids in the day. HIs dad had a very full-on job while he was growing up and was not hands-on at all, and he is keen to be the opposite. I think his work is a lot more family-friendly than many jobs, although I agree that it would be hard for him to work part time. Being self-employed means he is in charge of when and where he works. He usually does about half a day at the weekend, and maybe two late nights and a couple off early mornings in the week, but it's not as bad as some people have said above.

Have you read 'Lean In' OP? Sheryl Sandberg talks about women ruling themselves out of things before they are even pregnant which is what you are doing. How old are you?

cheminotte I agree. No point curtailing your career in advance of children. The more expertise you have before children the better your position after.

wincher that's how my dad worked. I don't remember him doing school run etc, but if he was in court fairly locally he would be home for tea and would do bath time/stories etc before getting back to work.

in fact he's kind of been my role model for my pattern of working now. Short days in the office then I pick them up from school and get back to work once they are in bed! It means little time for myself but it is the balance that suits me and them at the moment.

(Partly because there are no decent after school clubs at their school though!)

My Mum was a barrister when they adopted me. She took 4 months off when I went to live with them then we had an au pair who was fabulous. She's now switched and is a psychotherapist, but when she worked in courts it was rare I saw her during the week. I'm 35 now and we're not close at all; I don't feel as though I really got to know her during my childhood, she just wafted in occasionally looking quite fierce.

I am very close to all my children and always worked full time (and went back to work full time well before they were 4 months) so perhaps it just depends on the personalities of the people. A lot of men and women I know who work full time will put things that matter to them in the diary and work around that. As soon as I get school calendars for the year I start blocking dates out in my diary (my last year of this as the twins leave school in July) although even now it's quite a lot of stuff - l last week there was a school event and this week another although they were both at 6pm.

My father ( a busy doctor/ consultant) always drove us to school right up to age 18 and that was very useful time as we would talk to him about all sorts of things and read out to him the Times leader comments too. Involved parents will always make the effort to be involved with their children and those who don't want to will not. However I am not saying it is easy to combine work and home for anyone.

welshwabbit, I did manage to go to an emergency midwife appointment once by asking the court to rise early. To miss a whole day? Not a chance. Not only would I feel awkward professionally, but court time is too precious. We are listing trials with vulnerable witnesses in March 2018 at the moment. This is totally unacceptable, and would be made worse if we took into consideration everyone's childcare commitments.

I agree, that's the nature of the job. You lose the work if you're not available and osme people choose to lose the work. I was working with someone my age at the bar (male) on a big case last year and he had a long standing long booked family trip. He didn't do the appeal because he wasn't going to sacrifice the holiday (and he earns enough to be able to do that) and the party found another counsel. If he had been younger and needing the money more he would have cancelled the holiday I expect.

I used to do a lot of days sepaking ( 7 hour courses ugh...) out of London. the worst part was getting up at 5am for a 6am train etc...... and back at 10pm. That will be similar to young barristers going off to courts all over the country. I stopped that when I could afford not to have tod o it and I am still glad I don't do it any more - ditto foreign trips to give talks - not worth the hassle for the money. It is the travelling which is the killer. I hate it unless it's for pleasure. God bless email.

Sometimes children beneift. One reason my daughter is I think a good lawyer and very independent is because of things like aged 6 being in hospital alone (thankfully on BUPA) having a small operation with no parent there - we were either at work or with the younger children. The nurses said she was brilliant, enjoyed ordering her own food etc etc. I see that as a benefit to her not a curse. obviously if she were dying or really wanted us there we would have been there sitting with her night and day.

What a great thread! I had no idea there were so many of us barristers on here. Perhaps we can have our own support group to whinge about clerking?

I am 11yrs call, criminal/professional discipline/inquiries, and I agree with all of the people who have suggested that you crack on and then decide what to do when you get to that point. The question (and again I am not the first person to say this) is whether you really want to be a barrister! I am on our pupillage committee and it is often fairly clear when applicants are not really committed to the job and just think it sounds a bit cool (it is a bit cool).

My cousin in fact completed her pupillage and practised as a family barrister for five years before stopping entirely and staying at home for fifteen years with her children. She then requalified as a solicitor and went back to work at a big firm with an office local to her. She will not be a partner but she is happy with the route she chose. I myself would rather gnaw my own legs off and walk through a salty sea on the bloodied stumps than do that but there are lots of options available to you and your working life is very long.

In general terms you are more likely to find a favourable set-up in employment than self-employment, and in the public sector than the private. The freedom of self-employment very often means the freedom of professional clients to ring on your mobile at 8pm on a Friday and ask you to do something terribly urgent by 8am on Monday... If you have discounted crime because of the working structure rather than the work then you might consider pupillage with the Crown Prosecution Service - I have met quite a few of their pupils and they have a good time and actual employment rights!

OP - you asked earlier about working part time as a solicitor. It is definitely doable although can be tough when the kids are little. I did 4 days as a partner at city firm (my assistant did 3 days). And then 3 days in-house and now 4 days in civil service. Ime in house has been easier and more regular hours but not so lucrative. Once kids get older i may step up a bit and DP will do more of the family stuff.

Catsize, I completely understand the difficulty with crime. For me it only works if I (or someone else on my behalf) can list the case and put forward representations at the preliminary hearing, and I know (because I used to do it) that criminal practice does not work in the same way. In the employment tribunal, sometimes it's possible to not sit on the Fridays with a long case, as the judge can pick up interlocutory work on that day, and sometimes it's not. I would obviously either pass the case to someone else or get cover if not sitting on Fridays caused difficulties for the court, the parties or the witnesses. For shorter trials of less than 5 days it's usually easier to list avoiding Fridays. I think there are other areas of law where it could work, but people are reluctant to try for completely understandable reasons.

We are also all extremely lucky to have so many choices, not something people on minimum wage or zero hours contracts working shifts etc have (Just to be clear I am a solicitor not a barrister and I work for myself)

I'm a solicitor, married to a solicitor, lots of friends who are barristers. Haven't read the whole thread so apols if these points have been made.

• someone mentioned Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. Would really recommend reading this. While it's sensible to think about the future, it's not sensible if it means you rule yourself out of things you want to do in advance- you're limiting your career before you've even started. If you want to be a barrister, do it- people make it work with families. It isn't going to be easy but so what? Would also recommend reading this article (not exactly on point) nymag.com/thecut/2015/04/ask-polly-do-i-have-a-baby-or-have-a-career.html

• Don't know whether you're still thinking about being a solicitor but IME the hours you work depend hugely on the type of work you do and the type of firm you work at. High Street conveyancing is a world away from Magic Circle corporate, for example, and both have pros and cons. FWIW, I have mainly worked for biggish City firms in my career. Being a trainee was LONG hours and numerous all-nighters. As I became more senior, it was easier to take some control over my hours (not least because I had more visibility re what's coming up) but it's still not a 9-5 job, on the standard career path. Having said that, more and more firms are becoming wise to the fact that they lose good people by expecting their lawyers to work all hours, and are offering alternatives (eg defined hours)- this won't work in all areas of law, however, so depends what you want to do. It's also likely to stop or delay career progression. Smaller firms/High Street likely to be much more family-friendly.

• I have barrister friends who tried to take the approach you describe and it hasn't worked well. The problem with self-employment is that you need to be visible- unless you are super-senior, if you're not in chambers a lot, not in court etc, you're out of sight out of mind. Building a career requires you to be present and visible. So my friends have either ended up coming back full time (with the childcare that involves) or just having things fizzle out and being SAHMs.

• Above all, think what you actually want to do. There is absolutely no point in deciding to be a High Street probate sol when you really want to be a barrister doing big commercial or crime- why bother, if you have to compromise so much before you've begun? Think about the reasons to choose bazza or sol and the area of law you want to be in, and proceed on that basis. If you love your job, you will make it work. If you don't love it, you won't, as you won't be motivated to make the inevitable sacrifices.

Absolutely, EnormousTiger!

I know a successful barrister married with two kids. She has worked her arse off, sacrificed family time and had many years on very little sleep, but she's now very successful and is starting to be able to spend more time with her kids who are still primary age. She has had a lot of guilt about it all and it has been tough but it can be done.