Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be baffled by and disappointed with the amount of transphobia on MN?

999 replies

ShutTheFuckUpBarbara · 26/02/2017 11:02

I know I'll get flamed for voicing my opinion on this, but I don't care.

I just don't understand why there is so much hatred for trans people on here.

Yes, some trans activists are extremists and no I don't agree with them, but should all other trans people suffer because of them?

I get that there are issues that need to be addressed, as highlighted by recent items in the news and recent threads (which prison should trans people be sent to, can a MTW be a girl guide leader and various others). I don't have a solution for these, but I feel that as a society we should work together to make it work, rather than just spout hatred and insults.

It is especially disappointing as there are a lot of people in the trans community suffering mental health issues, often as the result of how they are being treated, and MN is usually a safe haven for people with MH issues.

I used to enjoy reading the Feminism chat (or most of it anyway), now almost every thread on there is transphobic Sad

Most of us here are women, a lot of us are from ethnic minorities, or have a disability, a lot of us have been discriminated against, we know what it feels like so why do it to others??

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
CharlieSierra · 26/02/2017 19:55

Apologies for butting in to what is evidently a very long discussion, just one very small point to make with regards to the definition of cis

What was the point? Were you under the impression that we weren't aware of the origin of the term, or was it something else?

midcenturymodern · 26/02/2017 19:58

Somebody asked what 'CIS' meant and asked if it was acronym. It's a big thread.

Atenco · 26/02/2017 20:02

That was unnecessarily rude CharlieSierra

SoulSearcher101 · 26/02/2017 20:14

CharlieSierra as midcenturymodern pointed out a poster asked what cis meant and I politely provided the answer as it is a word I have routinely used for years.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 26/02/2017 20:14

Thank you, SoulSearcher. I'd been wondering about that. I'm a classicist and I know the word Cis- from Latin (Cisalpine Gaul) although I'd be hard pressed to say what it means. I've been baffled about how we get from that to ciswoman, a term I hasten to add I never intend to use in real life.

SoulSearcher101 · 26/02/2017 20:19

You are most welcome GaspOdeTheWOnderDog, just trying to be helpful and also would never use the term as a prefix to woman.

Mrsmorton · 26/02/2017 20:24

I got all the way to the end of the thread to answer the question about what "cis" means and you bloody well beat me to it soulsearxher

This thread is good. It's not demonstrating anything that other threads haven't. Someone will jump in, shout "transphobe" for no reason then disappear. Some highly articulate arguments for which I'm hugely grateful.

Now, if someone could just answer the question about being a woman...

Mrsmorton · 26/02/2017 20:26

Do you point out that an isomer is "cis" or "trans"? And that's why we are where we are?
There's no just "isomer" which means the word can't prefix woman, that makes no sense.

merrymouse · 26/02/2017 20:27

There is no logical reason to have women's prisons and women's sports and women's toilets and women's refuges for people who feel feminine. Either there are physical and cultural reasons for these institutions and organisations, or somebody should

LadyPW · 26/02/2017 20:31

Soulsearcher It was me that asked so thank you for that. Flowers Not that it makes much sense because science was not my strong point - but it begs the question why we need to needlessly complicate things by adding scientific jargon! I still prefer the term 'woman'.
Charliesierra So sorry if my not knowing the official meaning behind the term CIS has offended you Hmm

Gallavich · 26/02/2017 20:32

If we can't define what makes a woman then we can't even discuss the question of 'women's facilities'
I really feel for the poster up thread (snorkmaiden?) who wants to find a definition of woman that is inclusive but can't work out how to do it. That's cognitive dissonance and it's very uncomfortable. The fact is, it's impossible to define woman without either referring to female biology, or using the term in the definition (begging the question I think is the philosophical expression) i.e. A woman is anyone who feels like a woman... that definition is patently unhelpful nonsense but that's what being inclusive gives us.

merrymouse · 26/02/2017 20:32

(Sorry) explain why they should be unisex.

Bitofacow · 26/02/2017 20:36

If you are lucky enough to be born a man or a woman you are fine.
If you are luck enough to have no chromosome abnormalities you are fine.
If you are lucky enough to be born with the correct set of genitals you are fine.

If you are different physically, emotionally or mentally and you can not claim to be wholly and unequivocally boy or girl you are.......... What? Wrong? In limbo?

I don't know the answer. I don't have a definition. I am not sure I am right. I don't have a clear, focused vision. I DO know I don't want these people to feel excluded from society. I DO know forcing people to declare on one side or the other does not feel right.

I don't think anyone is 'phobic' I do think some people are not listening to genuine questions and confusion.

KERALA1 · 26/02/2017 20:36

Pickle - I have a pissed off Dh who feels our "no boys" rule has been ignored and two confused dds, one has moved into the others room.

I haven't the heart to ask the person to leave they are nice enough and young. Dh and I have fallen out about it actually and we never fall out.

Gallavich · 26/02/2017 20:41

bitof
What do you mean by lucky enough to be born a man or woman?
Do you mean lucky enough not to have a mental health condition relating to your physical sex?
I don't have that, but you have no idea what other mental health conditions I or anyone may or may not have.
Feeling like you should be the opposite sex or being unhappy with your sex organs must be a very uncomfortable place to be, but considering that 1 in 4 people suffer from mental health difficulties I'm not sure why anyone without gender dysphoric should be assumed to be luckier than someone who does have it!
Is someone with bipolar disorder or paranoid schizophrenia luckier than someone with gender dysphoria? I would argue not.
I don't feel lucky to be born female, it's just a neutral fact. I don't recognise the concept of gender identity in myself so I can't say whether I'm luckier than someone who feels they have one that doesn't match their physical sex but I refuse to accept that my own personal issues and struggles are less serious than people who identify as transgender just because trans people are apparently the worst off of anyone. That's gasighting bullshit.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 26/02/2017 20:41

You cannot have a male cow. There are no male hen

Some people are going to be waiting a fuck of a long time for an egg

Mrsmorton · 26/02/2017 20:41

merr cis and trans molecules contain precisely the same ingredients but they are arranged in different ways. Imagine you and your twin sister wearing exactly the same clothes, if you had both shoes on your feet, you'd be the cis molecule, if she had one shoe on her left foot and the other on her right hand, she'd be the trans molecule. Whatever way you rotate, you'd still be different. (and your polarity would be different but that is the ceiling of my chemistry knowledge).

I'm assuming that the original trans prefix was used (sex/gender) to mean opposite or different so the word cis was then coopted to mean the same...

The same (cis) doesn't actually need defining in this case as we've all said, it has its very own name and that is woman.

merrymouse · 26/02/2017 20:51

If you are different physically, emotionally or mentally and you can not claim to be wholly and unequivocally boy or girl you are.......... What? Wrong? In limbo?

But most of the time it shouldn't matter whether you are a man or a woman. A properly tolerant society would accept a man wearing high heels and a dress to the office. Really all situations should be 'gender' neutral.

The problem is that because of immutable biological differences that affect most of the population, there are real differences between men and women and any sane functioning society has to sometimes recognise differences in sex.

At the moment the trans movement is emphasising gender differences that are purely cultural and ultimately harmful, while ignoring real differences that can't be changed.

Most people in MN just want to have a rational conversation.

chanceofrain · 26/02/2017 20:52

I thought that OddBoots beautifully articulated the trouble with 'cis' much earlier on in the thread. It bears repeating for those who missed it:

The trouble with 'cis' is that it comes from a starting point of saying that it defines a person whose biology matches their gender identity. Many women don't accept gender identity as a positive thing, it is instead the rules imposed upon them by a society that is based on a history and continuation of male-majority power. Having spent years fighting to try to escape gender identity it is really unacceptable to then have it shackled back onto us in deference to others.

wictional · 26/02/2017 20:53

The thing that gets me is the immediate rush of "I don't want transwomen to use the women's bathroom but I'm not transphobic!!1!!111" comments in this thread.

Yes, there is a great deal of transphobia on mumsnet and it's very upsetting to see.

EatingMyWords · 26/02/2017 20:54

I haven't read the whole thread because I know from previous ones how pointless and annoying it is, but you're right OP. Mumsnet is notoriously transphobic, but there's nothing you can say to argue with the terfs (a term coined by radical feminists themselves, incidentally), anything you say will be leapt on and pulled apart.

I ignore trans threads now(I know...) and keep the hell away from the feminist boards.

BevGoldbergsSister · 26/02/2017 20:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bitofacow · 26/02/2017 20:55

Gallavich indeed it is - gaslighting bullshit - which is the point I was making.
There are many, many shades of grey so why try to force someone to make a choice.
I have no idea of your personal issues are therefore I don't care if you identify as male or female. I don't think being an adult female is a simple biological fact for many - for those who it is they are lucky - for the others not so much.

RufusTheSpartacusReindeer · 26/02/2017 20:56

Really annoying

Loads of ploppers on here

treaclesoda · 26/02/2017 20:57

I don't have to hate or fear transwomen to not want to allow any man who says he is a woman unquestioned access to female spaces. That's the issue, not a hatred of transwomen.