To put my 4 yr old back into nappies?

[GettingScaredNow]

Potty trained at just over 2. Fine. Easy enough. Until recently.
She refuses to go to the toilet. Until it's too late.
I can see her doing the 'I need a wee' dance and I'll ask her but it just ends in her screaming at me and flatly refusing to go. Which then results in a wee accident.
We've had 4 this week. 2 involved me having to wash and sterilise all of ds's megabloks.

So I've had enough. After a 45 minute stand off over doing a wee this morning I can't take it anymore.
I'm going to buy pull ups today.
I ran this idea past my friend who said she was worried it could make matters worse and drove a gap between me and dd.
Dd is struggling with the break up of my marriage. Her father is abusive and she witnessed more then I realised.
She takes all her anger out on me.

So Aibu?

Sorry,should have said, waiting on therapy referrals from Solace right now.

I'm gonna try to take the ignoring approach again and love bombing

It really sounds like youre doing everything you possibly can do. Youre obviously a great mum and your dd is lucky to have you. Good luck with everything

I agree it's about control. Imo she sounds as though she's feeling very unsettled/insecure atm.

I'd treat it as low-key as possible, not make a fuss about accidents but make a positive fuss with lots of kisses and cuddles and maybe a small treat. Ignore the negative, praise the positive can work best when kids feel a bit rocky emotionally.

Dd is struggling with the break up of my marriage. Her father is abusive and she witnessed more then I realised

This doesn't sound like a toilet training issue to me. It sounds as though she may well be traumatised by the domestic abuse she has witnessed, in which case punishing her is going to be completely ineffective. The screaming and crying until vomiting episodes also don't sound developmentally appropriate for her age and are likely a manifestation of distress rather than naughtiness.

I would take her to the GP and ask for a referral to CAMHS for assessment. They may not pick her up for ongoing therapy (the thresholds are ridiculously high) but may be able to advise you on how to manage her emotional needs and signpost you to support services who can help.

You wil need to give the lovebombing a good month or so to work. Whatever the temptation is to put conditions on it you have to resist.

You cannot say "dd we are going to have some dd-time later and you can choose whatever you want to do in that hour. We can watch a movie, read a story, have a carpet picnic, play doh, painting or something else you choose. What do you think you would like to do?" and then use it as a threat later "dd we will cancel dd-time if you do not use the toilet/put your shoes on/eat your dinner and there will be no movie!".

So even if she's an utterly horrible brat and pissing all over the floor and calling you a bum-face you don't take away the dd-time or withdraw the promised treat. Because that undermines trust as well as rewarding the bad behaviour with extra attention. You have to show her you mean what you say and keep your promises to provide some certainty in her chaotic head.

I know some of that sounds like utterly indulgent bollocks but when all else has failed and you have a child who is traumatised and feels out of control it does work. I was sceptical but it genuinely did make a difference for my family... with time.

It's no magic overnight fix but over a couple of weeks you should start to see results. Don't expect too much at the beginning or you will lose the will. Be strong, you can do this.

Ok, thank you for that.

So let's say it's time for 'dd time', and we set up a film, and 2 mins into she needs a wee. Off she goes. Then ensues a tantrum about toilet paper and hand washing. 30 mins later she comes back.

So now there's only 30 mins of our hour left. What do I do?
Add on the wasted 30 mins or say 'sorry, you choose to spend it crying in the bathroom'
??

You leave her to get on with the tantrum alone (unless she is unsafe). There should have been plenty of build up to dd-time, lots of "I'm really looking forward to dd-time. It's going to be so nice to watch Tangled with you.". Do not mention the toilet or going before the film. When she says she needs to go, you say "ok, I'll pause the film so you don't miss anything but be quick! We don't want to run out of dd-time to watch it all!".

You might also want to allow 2 hours for dd-time to give you some wriggle room. She's also a bit young to be able to tell the time/have a firm grasp of how time passes so you can adjust timings a bit without her knowing.

Also, rather than focusing on sporadic DD time, I would also work something every day - so a 20 minute slot that can't be lost no matter what behaviour you've had to deal with. In our house it was bedtime stories - they got 20 minutes (and more like 40 often) every day no matter what had happened. Right before bed is a good time to re-connect, snuggle down and feel secure. It's often only the simple things they need.

You might quietly say after 5 minutes "dd, do you need any help? I would really like to watch the rest of Tangled with you. Would you like some popcorn?".

Don't make the toilet the 'thing'. Give her a reason to back down without backing down. Be calm, be patient.

I find it helpful to remember that although it's hard/frustrating/annoying for me it's much, much worse for the child but what I am doing is helping. Even if it doesn't seem to be much at the time!

Dd-time should not be sporadic. If you are following the Lovebombing approach it should always be planned and looked forward to.

I do agree boundaries and routine can be hugely comforting for a child. Particularly one who doesn't seem to like them.

What's the loo roll and hand washing tantrums over? Does she have them alone in the bathroom? Or are you there?

I'm just thinking out loud really about if she takes herself what instigates the subsequent upset?

I'm wondering if you can have a visual timer for your time. So if she needs a wee you can say you'll pause the time and start it again when she comes back. It may remove the pressure. So she knows the toileting has no impact on you or time with you.

What happens when she wets on the way to school? Is it stopping and peeing a massive puddle in the street or just a little leak and wet pants and she tells you about it? Is there visible evidence she's wet? Do her peers know? If they do how does she feel about that? Would wearing trousers stop her? Would she stop if it was a visible accident?

I honestly think it needs to become the most unimportant thing in her and your life. Pampers bedsheets would be good for cat etc. So say everyone do a wee as we are leaving and no toilet for 10/20 mins or whatever. Get in car. If she says she needs a wee casually say that's ok you'll be where your going in x amount of time and there's a toilet there. Always be positive she can go but don't let her not going affect what you're doing iyswim?

There is another element.

When I leave her to make the choice e to go on her own she does a really weird thing.

She will jump up shouting that it's too late and will hold herself.
But instead of going to the toilet she will come to find me to tell me that she's desperate and she's left it too late.
I think this is also why I get annoyed cos it makes no sense.
If your desperate then just go to the toilet, why run around the whole flat to find me and tell me?!?

I think that you will need a specialist to answer these questions, really. It sounds like she wants you near her.

Maybe you could try putting pictures up in the bathroom- you know, first, take down your trousers and pants, second, sit, third, wipe etc?

Because she wants your attention and reassurance.

I bet every time she says she needs a wee/has left it too late you jump straight up to help her.

I bet when she asks you to come and play babies/look at her picture you are much less responsive. That is totally normal but when you have a child who craves your attention she will choose the action that gets the biggest and quickest response. In this dynamic it's using the toilet.

It is the response from you she is seeking.

If your desperate then just go to the toilet, why run around the whole flat to find me and tell me?!? this assumes she is make a conscious or logical decision. She's not. She's in recovery stage and is just reacting and feeling.

Have you got an iPad or tablet? My dd had a phase like this and I let her use the tablet on the potty. I'm sure you won't read that tip in a parenting book but it worked for us!!

Have you checked for a UTI?

I don't have specific advice to add, just wanted to lend support. It's apparent from your posts that you're stressed out and on a short fuse. Add a troubled 4yo girl to the mix, you'd have to be saintly to demonstrate the necessary levels of patience.

Fwiw, my DD of similar age takes ages to do a wee. There's singing, playing with water, more singing on the loo, chatting to her friends in the mirror...the whole charade can take 20 mins. On school days I deal with it by nagging and yelling and screaming at the top of my voice . Weekends, I let her get on with it. They have only the loosest grasp of time at this age, and absolutely zero sense of urgency. However, they're also capable of quite sophisticated manipulation/cause-and-effect: not deliberately, they don't even know they're doing it. It's utterly maddening.

Good luck with whatever you do. It will pass as things settle down. And good luck with everything else too.

I completely agree with everything that Moving has said.
Stop looking at this through the eyes of a logical adult, she's a 4-year-old traumatised girl who has discovered a guaranteed method of getting what she needs from you.

So this lovebombing. Really giving it a try and I just have questions.

So this morning we decided what we're gonna do together this evening. She wants to read books with me (lots of emphasis placed on DS NOT being there!).

However, bedtime is at 7. She's been eating her dinner for over an hour now. What happens if we actually run out of time?
I don't want to push bedtime back as I have da to do afterwards (still I'm separate rooms) and then I have study (well I have court tomorrow so I'm prepping for that today!!) and housework etc before I go to bed.

So I understand that whatever the behaviour of the day is special time still happens, but what do you do when the child is so invested in wasting time that by the time she is ready for special time there is no time left?

She wants to read books with me but she also wants to do Lego. What do I do when the resulting tantrum comes because there isn't enough time to do both??

These may seem stupid questions but these are realities here. I feel like I'm drowning in being underprepared

Could she be afraid/apprehensive of the bathroom/toilet for some reason?
At 5 i suddenly started feeling like i hadn't fully emptied my bladder and started spending half an hour, and hour, etc sitting on the toilet. I'd get incredibly stressed out, upset, anxious, panic, and would eventually have to force myself off the loo. I was afraid if my bladder wasn't fully empty i'd have an accident (it felt like if you stop yourself mid flow).
I had all sorts of tests, no infection, scans, no deformations, no twisted bowel etc, so no physical reason for the feeling i was getting.
It has destroyed my life. The toilet has, and still does, rule my whole world. I have a very vivid memory of my gran, standing in the bathroom doorway one morning when i was severely late for school (we're talking almost 2 hours) because i just could not get off the toilet as i couldn't get myself to feel like my bladder was empty. She was screaming at me and threatened to physically drag me off the toilet and i still remember the fear and panic i felt that she would do it.

I developed full blown OCD about using the toilet, with ritualised ways to actually wee, to have to strain like im constipated to force out anything left in my bladder to make sure it is empty, ritualised ways to wipe and clean myself after. It takes me at least 45 minutes every time i use the loo. It has in all likelihood lead to me now suffering from over active bladder, as i severely restricted my fluid intake for years so was constantly dehydrated, i get recurrent UTI's, and after roughly half an hour to an hour after using the loo i get this feeling like im full to bursting and desperate, if i don't lie down, i'd have an accident. Sitting down used to work, but now only lying down does. If i try going to the loo, i can have as little as an egg cup full of fluid in there and i'd literally be in the loo every other hour, so i need a carer to do things as i physically cannot stand up to cook, clean or do anything for myself, and on top of it all im germphobic so wetting myself would feel like the end of the world, it's my biggest fear.

I have so many "what if" questions, if only they had found something physically wrong or tried some form of psychological treatment when i was a child, i wouldn't be virtually housebound with no life. I'm begging you, get your daughter referred to anyone and everyone you can to get this sorted, you never know what it could turn in to.

I meant to say before i became germ phobic i had severe toilet avoidance, i'd wait and wait til the very last minute before i'd wet myself to go to the loo and sometimes had little accidents then still wait after i'd trickled a bit as it temporarily made me feel like i didn't need to go yet.
I was so scared of the fact i'd get stressed and anxious and go through that awful "i'm not done" feeling when i went to wee that i became incredibly suicidal at 16, to the point my dad had to give up his job as i couldn't be left alone.

Get urgent referral to therapist for via cams.
She and you need support
Her behaviour is an emotional response
Play therapy art therapy specialist family break up therapy.
Over emphasize her trauma at gp so you get referred .

I wouldn't. I'd just say, ooh you look like you need a wee, but don't force her to go. Don't make it a battle of wills as I don't think that helps. Hopefully she'll soon realise that wetting yourself is not fun. Get her to clean up if you can. And no need to sterilise, just wash in warm soapy water.

You say: "dd it is dd-time in half an hour" and then reminders at 10 minutes and 5 minutes.

Then when it gets to dd time you say "dd, it is dd time now. You mentioned you wanted to do stories but you are also having fun with Lego. What would you like to do?" and then you do that.

It really doesn't matter what you do so long as she chooses and it's just the two of you. My ds is not good with looking forward to things - it makes him feel pressurised - so we just talk about ds-time and he chooses at the time.

Unless what they choose is dangerous you do it. The whole point is about having focused time where the child feels in control. It may be something really dull for you like watching Topsy and Tim together or it may be something more dynamic.

I'm not at all surprised about the no ds bit. That's very typical.

Try and relax a bit. You're doing well.