To put my 4 yr old back into nappies?

[GettingScaredNow]

Potty trained at just over 2. Fine. Easy enough. Until recently.
She refuses to go to the toilet. Until it's too late.
I can see her doing the 'I need a wee' dance and I'll ask her but it just ends in her screaming at me and flatly refusing to go. Which then results in a wee accident.
We've had 4 this week. 2 involved me having to wash and sterilise all of ds's megabloks.

So I've had enough. After a 45 minute stand off over doing a wee this morning I can't take it anymore.
I'm going to buy pull ups today.
I ran this idea past my friend who said she was worried it could make matters worse and drove a gap between me and dd.
Dd is struggling with the break up of my marriage. Her father is abusive and she witnessed more then I realised.
She takes all her anger out on me.

So Aibu?

Those consequences don't work. Believe me I've tried.
She had a movie night at school on Friday, because she refused to wee before going we missed it.

I gave her a timer and I reminded her every 30 seconds. When there was 30 seconds left she did a mad rush to wee and wash her hands. Ran out of time. Didn't get to go.
She is missing breakfast in the mornings.

Nothing works. I've over reacted, no reacted at all, been sympathetic.
Done reward charts etc. None of it works.

It's all about attention I'm sure. She loves the attention it gets.
So I think 'ok, don't give the attention then'
She screams and cries until she vomits for a reaction from me.

... in other words she needs to see direct consequences.

However, she is probably feeling really insecure, and this may be one of the few things she has 'control' over. So the other thing you could do is to give her control over another aspect of her life. e.g. Choosing family meals, selecting own clothes at weekends if she doesn't already, choosing stories or whatever. Especially if it can be linked to 'now you are older'.

And lots and lots of love and reassurance.

Also maybe some verbalising how she might be feeling. I wonder if you are cross with me and Daddy, that's fine, or scared / upset / anxious etc etc

Maybe working on the abuse that your daughter has been impacted by would help. Emotional distress can be closely linked to toileting issues. A quick Google search should show what domestic abuse support is in your area, often there is dedicated support for children as it can really impact them. Other than that the advice to stay neutral while dealing with the accidents and focusing on making her feel safe seems a good place to start. Given what you are both going through at present be kind to her and yourself.

Yanbu if it takes the stress out of it for you and for her. But I would also be speaking to someone to see if you can access help given you say she has witnessed more of her abusive rather than you had realised.

The two are quite possibly linked, especially if your break up has been relatively recent.

Fwiw my ds2 is very nearly 5 and due to a prolonged period of irregular night wetting (sometimes twice a night, missing a night then wetting again a few in a row, dry, back to wetting etc), we have put him back in pull ups for night.

In the meantime, whatever you decide, it's very important not to blame her or get angry. Easier said than done I know. Remain calm and get her to help clear up, even if it's just fetching and carrying. Your mantra needs to be "never mind, accidents happen", clear up. Hug, remind her to use the toilet when she needs to go and repeat.

Eventually she will hopefully realise you love her unconditionally, you aren't her father, and she will stop.

Ok, the children I work with are a little younger, but we have 4 year olds at the preschool I work at.
I would first check at the Drs if she has a UTI, that there is no physical/ medical reason that she's doing this. Also ask at school if anything is potentially upsetting her.
Then, when she has an accident (whether it's deliberate or not), and I know this is going to be hard, don't react at all. More of an "oh dear, you need to get changed now". Give her the clothes to get changed in to, take her to the bathroom to get changed, and leave her there to do it on her own. It can be so hard not to react with anger/ despair, I know, but if she's after attention, that will fuel her fire, so to speak. Give her praise/ attention for the things (anything, even loo unrelated) she does well (almost over the top), especially if she actually uses the loo, but downplay/ ignore the unwanted behaviour.
I know it's probably not going to be easy, but you can do this. (I had a son who would only poo/ wee in the garden with the puppy I was housetraining. No toilets at all. Bloody nightmare child. Oh, and he would wee in the hedge on the way home from school! He has stopped now though - he's 10, so I'd hope so!). I hope you get it sorted.

I don't have any proper advice but I do know Lundy Bancroft wrote a book about helping children deal with the aftermath of domestic abuse, might be of use - it's called When Dad Hurts Mom, it's on amazon. Good luck

I think you need to see gp and get referred for some help.

Screaming until vomiting is obvious distress and you've both been through a lot.

I also agree with ignoring the wee accidents. If she's wet don't even mention it. Let her have the control. I'm pretty sure she won't stay like that and you can praise her for changing her clothes sensibly after an accident.

In your example about movie night, I'd say that wasn't an immediate / logical enough consequence, and reminding her every 30 seconds made it seem obviously important to you that she did it- so not doing it was her way of controlling you. In that situation, I'd simply say, 'you should probably go to the toilet before you go because otherwise you might wet yourself at movie night and have to go home, and the other children might laugh at you. Look, I'm going to the toilet before we leave'. Take her with you, she either goes or she doesn't. If she wets herself at movie night, she goes home. If she doesn't (and she likely won't) then you haven't created a conflict situation and opportunity for her to act up/ control you.

I recognise your username now. Honestly, this is the last thing you need and I realise that staying calm and riding it out is far easier for us to say than for you to do. If you have to, to get through it, put her back in pull ups, but don't make a fuss about it and wait for her to ask to go back into pants. What worries me is that she won't ask, it'll drag on, and she'll find some other way of pushing your buttons to get attention.

Reward her good efforts, give stickers every time she sits on the loo. Even if she doesn't wee. Save the stickers up for treats like an ice cream or a toy she really wants. My DS didn't take to stickers as a reward, but liked stampers. He wound collect stamps all up one arm, then the next. Do whatever works for her and makes her smile.

I would say TeenandTween has hit the nail on the head. She is only 4, her whole world has been turned upside down, but not before she witnessed some very frightening/bewildering things. She is exerting control in the only way she can find. I would be looking for other ways to give her a level of control and also to boost her confidence - take her swimming, or bike riding, look for the things she is good at and praise them.

For a child who has been through what she has been through coming down hard on her is absolutely the wrong strategy. She needs lots of positive attention on any area you can give it, the accidents need ignoring completely, and if there is another safe person she can talk to (not you, but maybe an aunt/grandparent) then they should offer themselves as a friendly ear if she needs to talk about what has happened to her.

I had very similar with my DS in very similar circumstances and went to see the GP, who gave me the above advice. It worked, and surprisingly quickly.

She's had a trauma and she needs kindness and understanding. I know you've had a trauma too, and it's a very hard time.

I would agree it's about attention but also about control. It sounds like she has had a very traumatic experience from what you have said and she is too little to be able to process and deal with it. There are only two things in her life she can control: what she eats and using the toilet... so she is doing the one that gets most attention.

I would not put her back in nappies. I would stop mentioning the toilet at all (I know it's hard but you're the adult and have to just get on with it). Bite your tongue, count to 10, physically leave the room, but do whatever it takes to stop giving her the extra attention she desperately wants then. In the short term there may be more wee on the floor but it's the only thing that's going to work longer term.

I would try to make some times with more focused attention, just for her. Lovebombing is an interesting technique and it's completely unconditional so you can't withdraw it. Ime it does work but is not an overnight fix for a distressed child who craves your attention.

When the wee dance happens you can say once "dd I think you might need a wee". Then that's it. Nothing else. Get on with something else. All this asking every 30 seconds or taking to the toilet is just feeding the attention. Stop it.

Give the attention in other ways. I've mentioned lovebombing already and some other posters have good ideas on this thread: extra story for example.

Do you have any time when it's just the two of you? No younger sibling? If not you need to create some, even if it's just half an hour between bedtimes, and you must be clear this is her time, just for her.

I know it's hard, I've been there but you need to shift your focus and parent your way out of this one. Good luck

Has she got a UTI? That would be my first thought, over and above the psychological stuff you mentioned. PUll ups are more likely to exacerbate the problem.

You can control things a bit more too. Carry spare clothes, wipes and a waterproof bag with you so if she does have an accident while out you can clean it up with the minimum of fuss.

Don't stop doing things because she might have an accident. Prepare for a potential accident and deal with it if and when. All the fuss about needing a wee is just fuel for the attention so just simply stop providing the fuel.

We asked gp about this.

Physical things ruled out, so potentially behaviour/attention issue.

Neutralise is the answer. No emotion in any of it - apparently both making a big deal if you're cross and a big thing rewards wise counter-productive.

V hard though! Good luck op.

Sounds like she's found a way to get your attention and that's what she needs right now. Suggest you give her lots of positive attention about other things and ignore the ticketing. Don't remind her, don't react. If she has an accident be calm and disinterested. Oh Dear, go get changed then. Set up a soak bucket for her to pop her wet stuff into, the deal is she has to go change herself. Meanwhile you clean up without a word (for megablocks put in pillowcase then in washing machine if you don't think a quick rinse is enough ).
Remember, you can't make her use the toilet appropriately so best not to even try. She'll do it herself once she realises there is no mileage in wetting.

Ignore the wetting. Not ticketing.

You need to ramp up the attention you give her that is not around weeing. If she wee's then without emotion and minimal talking change her. Then make sure she gets attention regularly from you in other ways. She has (from what I can tell) had trauma, so it won't be a quick fix. It will take months but you should see some improvement after a few weeks.

Yep, stop focusing on punishing her and instead on trying to give her lots and lots of attention outside of the wetting.

Can you see a health visitor for some support? And the school?

It sounds to me that you've focused on the wetting as The Problem. I think a change of focus to her emotional issues and helping her would really help.

Seen gp, several times. No infections. No physical reason.

Your probably all right. I'm too focused on her so I g it. And maybe I'm being too controlling.

It's just so frustrating that we get ready, get out and then all have to go back out the car, up to the 9th floor and inside and then she wee's in the hallway and for why?
Cos she didn't want to go when I asked her too.

Or wee-ing on the way to school/way home.
Having to serve lunch/breakfast/dinner and then she goes during instead of before.

She also takes around 20 mins to go cos she spends 18 mins crying/shouting/admiring herself in the mirror.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned but have you thought about councilling for her? For the breakup and abuse she saw? I think under the circumstances and given that you seemed to have tried everything else it might help her. I hope things work out for you both.

This sounds like a control issue. She wants to control when she goes to the toilet and I wonder if it is related to her lack of control over the family situation.

The way you describe her as being smug suggests she gets some form of gratification from being defiant and not doing what you tell her.

I would take her to the Dr because it does sound psychological. She's obviously been through a lot - it wouldn't surprise me if she had regressed.

In the meantime I wouldn't hesitate to buy some pull ups, and like another PP said, not make a fuss about it.

Get pull ups if necessary, she is obviously reverteing to baby hood in order to block out the bad things she's seen. She can pull them down to go to the toilet if needed.
Then take a step back, it isn't important, she will not still be in pull ups at 6 in school, she will get over this. Peer pressure at school will take care of this.
Take the long view, don't panic. At least the abuser is gone that's the main thing.

I wouldn't be surprised if she refuses to wear the pull ups.

What you have described is class attention seeking and control. The more you react the more incentive for her to continue.

Classic