To dare speak about Vaxxed on MN?

[thegoodfight]

NC for this but a regular.

So I've just watched the documentary Vaxxed. I know how vaccine threads unfold on MN, so I'm ready to be told IABU however I feel like everyone should see this whatever your views - it's about the cover up around studies into autism and MMR

There is an admission from a CDC insider that he worked on the study and hid data which proved a link (a strong an quite frankly astounding one) and the data was sent to an external biologist who saw it for himself. There are first hand accounts from parents, scientists, doctors and politicians. The CDC haven't denied anything or called their lawyers despite it being an allegation of the biggest medical fraud ever (not exact words but something along those lines)

I just can't believe it's not been in the news! AIBU to ask if anyone else is planning to watch it??

thegoodfight I suggest you read the thread properly, I said pages back that I have seen the film.
I also pointed out that the African Boy Study has been debunked, it's been debunked a number of times. As has the CDC stuff.

No, dawndonna, I don't think you were.

You and I have bumped heads a number of times. I really don't give a shit what you think.

thegoodfight there is also a really good video by an austrialian doctor I'll try to find the link to.

Right back at you Dawn :)

Bumbley - no more pissing around with the oblique "some parents think" and "I'm only saying what the study doesn't say". I've seen you do this on various threads over the years, you're the moth that always appears when someone lights this particular candle!

What do YOU actually say? Tell us what YOU think, not what you think others should or might think?

Awaits the next Bumbley Quibble...

Our - you forgot the trademark

Ok so I've always wondered this when people say there's a link between autism and the vaccines. IF this is the case why do only some children who are vaccinated then go on to be autistic??? Surely if there was a link then every child who had them would be autistic. Plus there are some families who have both autistic and non autistic children so people who say vaccinations cause autism please explain this to me......

There s much more recent research (need to Find it) that says that some children are genetically predisposed to get autism than others...And that the predisposition may be exacerbated by vaccines. I just can't remember where I read it. It's definitely been in the last couple of years.

Noble, it depends on the size of the subgroup that is identified.

I just read the thread from a couple of years ago about this study, I'd forgotten quite how intellectually dishonest and full of errors it was.

We don't know how big the subgroup 'young African American boys' was because Hooker inexplicably omitted his sample sizes from his paper, which is like statistics 101 first lesson.

But the upshot was that there was an increase in autistic children in the age 3-5 group who had been vaccinated late. The conclusion was that these children who were vaccinated late were more likely to be autistic because they needed to be vaccinated to enrol in a special education programme. The autism caused the vaccine for this subgroup.

Applebite - I've actually said that people often think the paper claims that the MMR causes autism. It does not - I've quoted from and linked to the paper to show that. I think that most people haven't bothered to read the paper and they get their info from the media/other people who haven't read the paper and it turns into Chinese whispers with all sorts of incorrect assumptions floating about. I think people should read/watch things themselves so that they know what was said rather than relying on other people's interpretations which, as this thread shows, can often be incorrect.

Fair play he does say that the paper was retracted for fraud. Although he's managed to do it in such a way that anyone not familiar with the case wouldn't really get a grasp as to why other than perhaps to think he's been unfairly targeted. Fairly large red flag for anyone who is familiar with it that anything else in the film should be taken with a very large pinch of salt and that you are about to be manipulated with some 'alternative facts'.

Somehow he can never quite bring himself to admit that the conclusion he drew wasn't the problem.

OurBlanche, because journalists' descriptions of studies aren't always very accurate and can be very biased. I thought maybe you'd read the studies seeing as you posted the link as evidence of the many studies done.
I haven't found the study itself but found a description given by LSHTM.
I quote..
"The research team, based at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, analysed the medical records of children registered with hundreds of general practices across England and Wales to find out whether those with autism, or other pervasive development disorders (PDDs)*, were more likely to have received MMR. They compared the vaccination histories of 1294 children diagnosed with these disorders between 1987 and 2001 with 4469 'control' children of the same sex and similar age who were registered with the same practices but who did not have a recorded diagnosis of autism."

The problem I have with this particular approach is that most children, whether affected by autism or not, would have had the MMR (e.g. in England, 80-92% of all children reaching age 2 between 1988 and 2013) . So asking whether the autistic children were more likely to have had the MMR really doesn't tell us anything meaningful...but a layperson will accept it as evidence because that is how it is presented. It may as well say "This study blah blah blah blah and shows there's no link between the MMR and autism."

We need to take a large group of MMR-vaccinated people and a large group of non-MMR-vaccinated people from the same population and compare the rates of autism between the two. THAT would answer the question. However, there is no large group of non MMR vaccinated people in our population, so we lack a meaningful study. If anyone knows of such a study, please send me a link!!

If anyone wants to read the thread where I discover that the 'Young African American children' charge is dishonest shite statistical manipulation on the part of antivaxxers (it contains lots of statistical detail about the paper) the thread is here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/vaccinations/2162619-Can-the-MMR-or-other-vac-ever-cause-autism?pg=1&order=

mimi There's a Japanese study which shows incidence of autism increased after the MMR vaccination was banned.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15877763

The MMR vaccination rate in the city of Yokohama declined significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1992, and not a single vaccination was administered in 1993 or thereafter. In contrast, cumulative incidence of ASD up to age seven increased significantly in the birth cohorts of years 1988 through 1996 and most notably rose dramatically beginning with the birth cohort of 1993.
CONCLUSIONS:
The significance of this finding is that MMR vaccination is most unlikely to be a main cause of ASD, that it cannot explain the rise over time in the incidence of ASD, and that withdrawal of MMR in countries where it is still being used cannot be expected to lead to a reduction in the incidence of ASD.

I hope you know there is " dishonest shite statistical manipulation " in most pharmaceutical studies noblegiraffe. I am sure you are familiar with the phrase "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

But Bumbley, that's not the question I was asking! What do YOU think about vaccines and where do you get your information from?

You don't have to answer of course, but it would make more sense of your instant presence on any vax thread!

mimi yes, I'm fully aware,, however not including sample sizes is a pretty basic error wouldn't you think? And saying 'I don't know why person X looked at this subgroup' when in person X's report it says 'We looked at this subgroup because....' is either a lie or an indication that they haven't read something properly?

I'm not defending it, just pointing out that you can find that sort of crap in equal measure whether the study results are pro vaxx or anti vaxx.

I shall read the Japanese study, though it isn't the same type of study as I suggested as it's comparing population rates of autism pre and post ban.

mimi pharmaceutical companies (well 'Big Pharma') at least have statisticians analysing their data, not some guy and a spreadsheet.

How about this one, mimi (I've not looked at it myself)

www.autismspeaks.org/science/science-news/no-mmr-autism-link-large-study-vaccinated-vs-unvaccinated-kids

Why are we all so obsessed about autism in relation to vaccines?

The evidence is skant.

My concern in relation to vaccines relates much more to other problems we are seeing in increasing numbers since the 1990s. I read the other day there has been a 700 per cent increase in hospitalisations due to food allergy since early 1990s.

What is going on?

What about the rising number of autoimmune disorders?

What are the long term effects of multiple vaccines on young immune systems?

Common sense tells me that you are going to stress an immune system by exposing it to 26 odd vaccines by age 2.

What happens to that immune system in the long term?