To think that we don't need a London Modest Fashion week??

[Cherrysoup]

Given that we're not living in the Victorian era?

I dress modestly, through choice as much as anything else. My husband calls my style 'Sunday school teacher chic' which always makes me chuckle as our Sunday school teachers are likely to be found in jeans and converse!

I don't think my clothes are awful, I think they're beautiful and I've never had a horrible experience wearing them in over 20 years. When I walk down the street in my pink butterfly abaya I feel like a powerful pink queen

Not exactly modest (in the humble, unassuming sense ) then is it?

Don't take that the wrong way. Good for you that you like them and they please you, and no one has any right to say you are wrong.

But can you not see how loaded , pejorative and illogical it is to describe a flamboyant article of clothing as "modest" but a plain black knee length sleeveless dress or shorts a t-shirt as not "modest"?

But can you not see how loaded , pejorative and illogical it is to describe a flamboyant article of clothing as "modest" but a plain black knee length sleeveless dress or shorts a t-shirt as not "modest"?

I find it very contradictory too as is the whole idea of a modest "fashion week".

But can you not see how loaded , pejorative and illogical it is to describe a flamboyant article of clothing as "modest" but a plain black knee length sleeveless dress or shorts a t-shirt as not "modest"?

But I don't think that!
I wouldn't wear it outdoors myself because of my interpretation of hijab but I don't think there's anything wrong with it.
My Mum is Muslim but chooses not to cover her hair etc anymore, she would wear something like you describe. I would never think she was immodest. She can dress in a way thats right for her and I can dress in a way that's right for me...I don't know why it's so hard to understand/believe that we aren't all judging anyone who doesn't dress like us. I think my pink abaya is modest, seems plenty wouldn't, that's fine by me, we aren't all robots who think the same!

She can dress in a way thats right for her and I can dress in a way that's right for me...I don't know why it's so hard to understand/believe that we aren't all judging anyone who doesn't dress like us.

People aren't "judging" you or suggesting that you should or shouldn't dress in a certain way. They are just giving their opinion that your dress isn't modest.

Roomster101 What I was trying to say (in response to various comments I've had on this thread) is that I don't think that all clothes other than abaya/jelbab/khimar/headscarves are immodest.

"What I was trying to say (in response to various comments I've had on this thread) is that I don't think that all clothes other than abaya/jelbab/khimar/headscarves are immodest." I think I get what you mean muhajaba

Can you see though why women reject the idea that T-shirt and shorts are seen as immodest in the Muslim context and that some Muslim men see Western girls as 'easy' because they don't dress or behave in the expected Muslim way (is Haram correct?)? You must see that there is an element of coercion in various ways (not for all or even the majority). also the notion of 'choice' needs to be seen with some caution. Just as choosing to wear Jeans and jumper is a choice only within a social context.

I don't think that all clothes other than abaya/jelbab/khimar/headscarves are immodest.

Yes, but as this comment clearly shows you think that some clothing which is not those is immodest.

This is the thing with a lot of your posts. You are very clearly consciously making a point of saying that you don't judge other women's choice of clothing. But I really don't think that is sincere. Because you keep dropping yourself in it because your comments keep giving away your actual views in unguarded slips. All this talk of 'grey areas' between modest and immodest and 'not all' other clothing is immodest.

You clearly do judge some other women's clothing, and that really doesn't sit right with your demands that you not be judged. It seems like it's much more a case of 'I shouldn't be judged because I'm right, but I judge those who don't adhere to what I believe is right' rather than genuinely not wanting any woman to be judged.

"Yes, but as this comment clearly shows you think that some clothing which is not those is immodest." Bill I really did not read "I don't think that all clothes other than abaya/jelbab/khimar/headscarves are immodest." like that. I really like your posts but this one is a little bit nit picky and not helpful for the debate.

Yes some women are unfortunately coerced in various ways to wear things they wouldn't choose for themselves. I don't think it's as common as many non Muslims believe but it does happen, especially within certain cultures. Generally these same cultures are the ones that produce men that don't understand that a women wearing shorts for example is not wearing them as a sign she'll have sex with anyone that wants it. These problems (in my opinion) don't arise because of Islam but because Islam isn't practised properly.
I understand that non Muslim women could get the idea that Muslims view them as immodest because of the way those kinds of men behave.

Bill You are misunderstanding me, like a few other people on this thread have...I really can't explain myself any better than I already have, I wish I could write more eloquently. I have been honest and sincere in what I have said, I have no reason not to be.
Once again (for the last time )- I do not judge women who dress in a way that is different to my interpretation of correct hijab.

some Muslim men see Western girls as 'easy' because they don't dress or behave in the expected Muslim way

I personally think it's a little dangerous to describe these type of men as "Muslim men". I understand why you did but just because someone is born in to a religion and may believe in some parts it doesn't mean their actions (good or bad) should be automatically associated with the religion they identify with, especially if it is so far removed from what the religion prescribes.

That sounds like a bit of a ramble lol what I'm trying to say is in general the 3 Abrahamic religions have very similar 'rules' especially when it comes to sexual activity outside of marriage and respect in general. If a person is following their faith correctly they would not behave as these men do so we shouldn't identify them as "Muslim men".

Whilst their is a problem in some Muslim communities with boys/men who look down upon British white females, I don't think this is anything to do with religion, purely cultural. I think culture causes massive problems in some communities.

Bill You are misunderstanding me, like a few other people on this thread have...I really can't explain myself any better than I already have

We are misunderstanding you because you , and only you ,apparently, have access to an English dictionary which gives definitions of "modest" and "immodest" hitherto unheard of.

Alternatively you have decided , Humpty Dumpty contrariwise, to decide "modest" and "immodest" mean something completely different from their dictionary meanings.

These words have meanings- defined in dictionaries.

There is a neutral meaning of modest -plain, not showing off , not ostentatious, humble (which no one is taking exception to ) or there is the loaded meaning of saying a woman is immodest.

I wouldn't wear it outdoors myself because of my interpretation of hijab but I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

And nobody said there was I said it was not modest (using the dictionary antonym of flamboyant) because a garment as eye catching as a bright pink abaya is flamboyant.

So frankly goodness only knows what your interpretation of "modest" means since apparently you don't agree that either of the dictionary definitions are correct.

Modest is a loaded gendered word which casts a judgment on someone wearing clothes which are not modest.

I do think it's good we can all discuss these issues amicably actually and thank everyone for taking part.

Lass I don't know why you keep saying I don't understand the dictionary definition of the words, obviously as someone who can read I do and it's pretty obnoxious.
I don't really know what you're on about to be honest, the points you are making about what I've said make no sense to me and you seem to be determined to twist and misinterpret everything I say. You seem to think I'm the only person who holds this opinion, trust me I'm not, its fairly standard amongst English speaking Muslims. As I said before, I came on the thread to give the perspective of an actual hijab wearing Muslim but I'm really done trying to explain myself now.

Modest is a loaded gendered word which casts a judgment on someone wearing clothes which are not modest

Uum Enormous think you've royally missed the point..

I do think it's good we can all discuss these issues amicably

I agree however it's a shame that majority of your posts were islamophobic, rude and offensive. I sincerely hope you re evaluate your views and question why a woman choosing to cover her body offends you so much.

Lass I don't know why you keep saying I don't understand the dictionary definition of the words, obviously as someone who can read I do  and it's pretty obnoxious

Here are the dictionary definitions again. I find it obnoxious that women's clothes can be seen in these terms. You have your interpretation of these words- perhaps you could let the publishers of the dictionary know they have got it wrong too.

immodest
ɪˈmɒdɪst/
adjective
lacking humility or decorousness.
"his immodest personality"
synonyms: indecorous, improper, indecent, indelicate, indiscreet, immoral; forward, bold, brazen, impudent, unblushing, unchaste, unvirtuous, shameless, loose, wanton; informalfresh, cheeky, naughty, saucy
"her clothes and manner were most immodest"

Definition of modest dress
(of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid attracting sexual attention. 'the modest women wear long-sleeved dresses and all but cover their faces'^

Modest is a loaded gendered word which casts a judgment on someone wearing clothes which are not modest

Yes it is. Enormous has said some things I find odd but she is correct in that one.

I'd like to know what actually constitutes clothing that isn't considered modest, by those using the term.

It offensive to see women covered because of what it symbolises - catastropohic discrimination against women. That's all. I can live with feeling offended and I would not ban it but I am free to voice my views.

I don't think I've ever been rude to anyone in my life actually so I don't agree that comments I made such as having to wear head covering means I feel hot, can't see as well and cannot hear properly ( my experience) are rude or anti Islam. Indeed you could argue the Koran does not require women to cover and that it offends God (not that there is one) who created women's beautiful bodies to cover them up, that you are basically insulting God by saying women's hair and the like has to be covered up, you are saying your creation is awful. I bet if there were a God she would be crying over the misogyny and misinterpretation of scripture men have imposed on women through the sexism of most religions and the desire of men to control women, their looks and their seuxality.

Lass

How can you agree with that statement? Did you read it properly?

She ended the sentence by saying someone wearing clothes that are not modest

She is saying herself that there are clothes which aren't modest..it's a contradictory statement.

And she hasn't said some things that are odd, they've been offensive. It's a shame no one else called her out on it. I can bet if she said she was offended by women who wear shorts and tank tops people would have been all over her....

Enormous

I honestly can't be arsed to go back to your posts and highlight all the rude, offensive statements you made. There's no point making out you were only speaking on your experience of wearing a hijab when you clearly weren't, any one can scroll back and see that clearly, as I said I'm not going to waste my time.

you are saying your creation is awful

Since when did covering mean your body is awful? I think it's the opposite for Muslim women, they cover because they don't want everyone being able to look at their beautiful bodies.
I wear underwear every single day, I can assure you by doing so I am not saying my private areas are 'awful' it's just clothing that I want to wear.

It offensive to see women covered because of what it symbolises - catastropohic discrimination against women

Discrimination against who?! Women CHOOSE to cover they are not being discriminated against. It's you who's being discriminatory against Muslim women!

I'm not going to engage with you any further think I need to step away from this thread, it's starting to piss me off! It's honestly like talking to a brick wall. A really dense brick wall.

Modest is a loaded gendered word which casts a judgment on someone wearing clothes which are not modest

I made the assumption that in using "not modest" that Enormous was looking at it from the mindset of a person who thinks there is a valid distinction between modest and not modest. I don't think Enormous personally has done so.

She made a point that both fashion weeks are a frivolous waste of time but that is a different matter.

Lass

I don't see how you got that from her post personally...

She quite clearly said that it casts a judgement on the person who is wearing clothes that aren't modest..

Anyway we shall have to agree to disagree! Right I'm out now..

It's a shame no one else called her out on it

I did on 2 of her earlier posts.

I fully agree about bashing one's head against a brick wall. Dictionary definitions of words have been posted several times but apparently these words don't mean what the dictionary says.

"Full" or "fuller coverage clothing" is an accurate, neutral and non judgemental description. It would accurately describe a flamboyant, pink abaya too.

When I am looking for a swimsuit for example I Google "full coverage swimwear"- brings up exactly what I am looking for.

Muhajaba can continue to insist on making a distinction between modest clothing and clothing which is not modest; she can continue to insist she has the power to rewrite dictionaries and I will continue to find her inability to even consider how offensive this distinction is obnoxious.

Modest is a loaded gendered word

It's not technically gendered (in a muslim context anyway), as men are also required to follow hijab (which has come to mean a head covering but actually means modest dress as a whole). Men are required to wear particular styles of clothing, and rules are stricter if women are present. They aren't supposed to wear certain fabrics or colours, or jewellery, all of which women are allowed.

Yes its a gender issue, but there is some balance at least.