To think that we don't need a London Modest Fashion week??

[Cherrysoup]

Given that we're not living in the Victorian era?

And yet you've never noticed the many women in perfectly good, equal relationships where it all works perfectly well and everyone is happy and equal? It's almost as if you have some bias there.....

That wasn't my point, though. Relationships can certainly be equal. The original question was about income and my response was about how not having an income does tend to put women in vulnerable situations in relationships.

As for Theresa May it irritated me that as soon as she was elected that the media started harping on about her dress sense. They rarely did it for Cameron and other recent male predecessors. But no, because she is a woman suddenly how she dresses is important.

and my response was about how not having an income does tend to put women in vulnerable situations in relationships

Yes, and my response was to disagree with your categorisation, which I am still doing. "Tend to" or can do?
Assuming is rather offensive.

As for Theresa May it irritated me that as soon as she was elected that the media started harping on about her dress sense. They rarely did it for Cameron and other recent male predecessors. But no, because she is a woman suddenly how she dresses is important

What is there to say about Cameron other than he was always well turned out in a good suit and he suits black tie/ white tie?

Theresa May has an interesting style which to me ( because hey I'm an airhead who notices this sort of thing) She has cultivated herself over the years without necessarily using a stylist. She likes bold colours and asymmetric hems and necklines. She doesn't play safe- sometimes it doesn't work, most of the time it does.

Sturgeon, much as I loathe her politics, supports local , new Scottish designers.

Why should this not be talked about?

And yet you've never noticed the many women in perfectly good, equal relationships where it all works perfectly well and everyone is happy and equal? It's almost as if you have some bias there.....

eh? This is what you said. It had nothing to do with income. It was about relationships.

Frankly, though, seeing what I've seen I'd prefer the security of my own income!

*Theresa May has an interesting style which to me ( because hey I'm an airhead who notices this sort of thing) She has cultivated herself over the years without necessarily using a stylist. She likes bold colours and asymmetric hems and necklines. She doesn't play safe- sometimes it doesn't work, most of the time it does.

Sturgeon, much as I loathe her politics, supports local , new Scottish designers.

Why should this not be talked about?*

Actually, I haven't even looked at TM's clothes. I'm rather more interested in how she runs the country and manages to steer a course through some pretty volatile times. People's futures rather depend on how she leads after all.

But there-in lies the double standard. What indeed "is there to say about Cameron other than he was always well turned out in a good suit and he suits black tie/ white tie?" ... well people did rather focus on how he was doing his job, not what he was wearing while he was doing it.

Which brings me back to this thread and the points made earlier about sides to the coin. The deeper issue is that fashion is an industry (just like the whole beauty industry) that is deeply gendered. Women are supposed to invest in and care about looking good in ways that men are not, and we are supposed to do this in order to please men (whether this is about 'normal' or 'modest' fashions). And for all your constant whining every time someone dares bring up comfy shoes, the fact is that MN is one of the few places we can talk about this and where we can critique it and where women less interested in style and more in shoes that provide ankle support and trousers that are comfy around the waist can find agreement. There are a zillion places where those more interested in the latest fashion fad can go to - just check out the magazines on sale to women or the zillion or so fashion and beauty sites on the internet.

Actually, I haven't even looked at TM's clothes. I'm rather more interested in how she runs the country and manages to steer a course through some pretty volatile times. People's futures rather depend on how she leads after all

It is possible to be interested in more than 1 thing at the same time.

And when were you appointed moderator of what may or may not be discussed on this or any other thread? Given that this thread is specifically about fashion perhaps find one more suited to what you want to talk about rather than "whining" on this one?

Women are supposed to invest in and care about looking good in ways that men are not, and we are supposed to do this in order to please men

Oh that one is classic. Yes, no woman ever makes a decision about wearing something that she feels attractive in or suits her other than to please a man.

That is the other side of the coin of the brigade promoting "modest" clothing and every bit as sexist, misogynistic and narrow - minded.

I think it's a good thing to have. It might make some young westerners, culturally pressurised into, let's face it, ridiculous clothing (think high heels, mini skirts, low cut tops) think again and adopt some of these more practical and less revealing styles.

I have never found what I am forced to wear in Muslim countries practical! It is absolutely awful. You cannot see at the sides. You cannot hear because you have cloth over your ears. The skirt is so long it's like being transported back to Victorian England where you could not ride a bike as a woman. It is anything but practical. it is designed to keep women down and serving men, to limit their rights.

TrishanFlips but do you seriously think it's a good idea to call it "modest", though? Because that's a very subjective judgement (one person's "modest" is another person's "jezebel") and by calling one set of clothes "modest" you are by necessity calling other clothes - and the women who wear them - "immodest". No good is going to come of that.

Enormous what a ridiculous, offensive post.

"I have never found what I am forced to wear in Muslim countries practical! It is absolutely awful"

What Muslim countries are you by choice visiting that 'force' you to wear certain clothes? I've been to Muslim countries and not been forced..did you go to Saudi? Perhaps you should consider alternative holiday destinations.

" you cannot see at the sides. You cannot hear because you have cloth over your ears"

I assume you wore a face veil? Again, where on earth have you been visiting? I live in a predominantly Muslim area in London, there are many, many women who wear the face veil and I can assure you their eyes are uncovered and they can see just fine. They drive, cart around a shopping trolley without bashing in to people. You are talking utter bollocks and your post stinks of islamophobia.

"You cannot hear" haha that's just funny, so you think the millions of women who wear a hijab all can't hear properly? Think you were putting your scarf on wrong love, sorry.

"The skirt is so long it's like being transported back to Victorian England where you could not ride a bike as a woman. It is anything but practical. it is designed to keep women down and serving men, to limit their rights

Do you believe maxi dresses were designed to limit women's rights? Are you this passionately against push up bras which were invented by a man? Or is it just Islamic dress you have an issue with...?

Again, millions of women wear long dresses everyday through choice whether for personal or religious reasons, I'm sure they get along just fine and don't cry themselves to sleep because they can't ride a bicycle.

Not surprised posters like muhajaba get defensive about her choice to wear what she does when there's islamophobic nonsense casually flying about. She has already stated she believes it is a requirement from God to wear what she does, who is neither a man or woman. I presume majority of muslims feel the same way.

Oh and interesting choice of word YetAnotherSpartacus a woman expressing an opinion you don't like /don't agree with is "whining"

Isn't that the sort of language MRAs use to belittle women?

One way of looking at the modesty issue is that the event shows 'Brand Islam' is gaining traction and items signifying Islamic faith are becoming fashionable, coveted commodities.

In this context 'modesty' is being flaunted as the ostensible value du jour. In the process the mythical notion of 'modesty' is turned into a status symbol suggesting the wearer's vanity and turning the idea of 'modesty' on its head. Showcasing modesty becomes ostentatious rather than 'modest'.

www.theguardian.com/media-network/media-network-blog/2014/feb/18/islamic-economy-marketing-branding Interesting read on Islamic marketing. It makes massive business sense.

Saying that, why shouldn't Muslim (and other) women have lovely clothes that fit with their identity and are nice to wear. Not all wear long floating garments, I saw some nice jeans, long sleeved cotton top and beautify headscarf combos.

I do not at all support the idea that women should hide away from the male gaze or that women's hair is in any way provocative, I detest that sort of thinking. To me that's oppressive and if men feel unduly challenged by seeing women's hair they should frankly stay inside or wear blinkers.

But I do like the aesthetics of some of the beautiful head garments, they can look super smart and 'pretty'.

*Oh and interesting choice of word YetAnotherSpartacus a woman expressing an opinion you don't like /don't agree with is "whining"

Isn't that the sort of language MRAs use to belittle women?*

Lass - you need to examine your own voice sometimes too. Currently feeling for a young woman on another thread who I think you belittled - and with no provocation either.

ET - ITA re a lot of muslim clothing not being comfortable for women. In fact, I've heard Islamic women say exactly that (those who refuse to wear 'modest' clothing).

Strawberry I was just describing my experience in Iran, that's lal (and it was work not a holiday and yes I could have chosen not to go but I think it's important to show women in the west have freedoms and careers and be an example).. I did not cover in Dubai (again there for work) of course as that is different. Hearing my simultaneous translation from my english into Farsi with an ear piece when you cannot hear through the lump of cloth was dreadful. There was a massive differenet between men and women and I find it very offensive myself when I see women covered up in the UK by the way but I don't of coruse say anything. I just smile sweetly and carry on but do aware many of our ancestors fought and fought to gain legal righst and get out of those awful Victorian long skirts and indeed maxi dresses ugh..... and we will not shut up and let it be unsaid what damage that kind of clothing does to women and their rights. We have a right to express a view.

When I said practical up thread I was not thinking of burka veil type wear. The modest Fashion Week is not about that - from what I see the clothes are much more stylish and more revealing than a burka. Agree though that some of the long beautiful dresses on show are not practical either. But I was thinking more of the smart trousers, tops, cardigans, jumpers and jackets. Some are really nice and stylish - practical too. I dislike some of the very revealing clothes of western fashion and I dislike the burka-veil-type wear. As someone said up thread the words modest and fashion don't really go together because consciously following fashion is about showing off a bit, isn't it? However I don't mind use of the word Modest for this type of fashion because it might make people think more about what they wear and why. Someone wearing very sexualised, revealing clothes is hardly dressing modestly (but then again I admit neither is some wearing a very full flowing exuberant albeit non-revealing gown !). In both cases the wearer might still be a modest person. I don't think we should get too hung up on the word.

EnormousTiger I'm sorry but what you have said sounds ridiculous, there are many different styles of clothing for Muslims that would be fine in Iran and if you knew you were going to be wearing hijab perhaps you could have got something that fit you? Your skirt would not need to drag on the ground, just cover your legs.
I don't understand why you were wearing niqab, it isn't the norm there, unless you are talking about a chador? If you couldn't see out of the sides you weren't wearing it correctly or were wearing it drawn in unnecessarily close, someone should have helped you. Contrary to popular belief chadors aren't actually compulsory to wear, unless visiting a mosque or shrine.
It is true that wearing head gear can reduce your ability to hear but there are plenty of things you can do to to remedy this, it doesn't have to be a big deal.
Was your visit a long time ago or to a rural area perhaps? In Tehran tight jeans and little scarves that show the hair are the norm these days.

I could have chosen not to go but I think it's important to show women in the west have freedoms and careers and be an example).

Which women were you setting an example to? The ones confined to their homes rearing children? How did you access them? I assume the only women you came in contact with were ones in the workplace or out and about on the streets...?

Plenty of women in middle eastern countries work, albeit plenty who don't some by choice some due to cultural pressures. Plenty of Muslim women in the west also work.

I did not cover in Dubai (again there for work) of course as that is different

Why is Dubai different it's still a Muslim country? Just because you went to a strict part of Iran you can't taint every single part of the Middle East with the same brush.

Hearing my simultaneous translation from my english into Farsi with an ear piece when you cannot hear through the lump of cloth was dreadful

Why didn't you slip the ear piece underneath the piece of cloth? Or did you place it over your head too tight? That's your own fault sorry, you didn't use your common sense. There are plenty of Muslim women who work and I assume their hijab is not a hinderance.

There was a massive differenet between men and women and I find it very offensive myself when I see women covered up in the UK

There's also a massive difference between men and women in the west but that's a whole other thread.

So your offended by women who choose to cover? I suggest you stay at home then.
Are you honestly offended by women who wear maxi dresses? Or just Muslim women who dress in religious garments? If the former, you need to grow up and if the latter you have extremely bigoted views.

So it's ok for you to be offended by a woman who covers but it's not ok for a woman to be offended by someone who doesn't? I am struggling to see logic in your views on this, I just see pure islamophobia. It's shocking that you are offended by a woman's choice of clothing. It's you who seems to be stuck in Victorian times!

and we will not shut up and let it be unsaid what damage that kind of clothing does to women and their rights. We have a right to express a view

Who is "we" exactly? You and your Britain first gal pals? As far as I can see your the only one with islamophobic views on this thread. The only one who thinks our ancestors fought for women to NOT cover rather than have a choice in what we wear.

If you have daughters I sincerely hope you are not bringing them up to share your views. Telling a girl she mustn't wear clothes that cover her is just as bad as telling her that she should only show her eyes and hands.

unless visiting a mosque or shrine

muhajaba

Sorry to completely change the subject but isn't Islam a monotheistic religion? I thought that's what differentiates between it and others? You mention visiting shrines, I assume this is to worship? I have Muslim friends who have told me Islam is based on worshipping one God through no prophet, shrine, grave etc.

I hope you don't mine me asking, I'm just curious!

I could have chosen not to go but I think it's important to show women in the west have freedoms and careers and be an example

All hail the western woman, come to save the women of the East.

FFS.

StrawberryMummy90 Not at all and you're right but some Shia and members of other sects have saints and will visit shrines for them, there are quite a lot in Iran. The majority of Sunni Muslims believe this is an un-Islamic practice, it's one of many reasons unfortunately why so many shia/sunni dislike each other.

I never said I covereed my face. I was obliged to cover my ears (hence hearing problems and heat and no side vision - absolutely dreadful limitation on women). I had to cover most of my body. It was a horrible experience. Awful clothing. Why anyone would choose to wear it is beyond me and surprise surprise as soon as we got back on the flight to London from Teheran and all these whipping off immediately the hated head covering - says it all really.

I never said I covereed my face. I was obliged to cover my ears (hence hearing problems and heat and no side vision - absolutely dreadful limitation on women)

A 'limitation' that millions of women choose. I personally think a tight mini skirt is quite limiting to how I move my body, I couldn't get on a bicycle wearing one, they're pretty uncomfortable as well. However I'm not up in arms about other women choosing to wear them and I'm certainly not judging their attire as a 'dreadful limitation'. Every time you post it becomes more and more evident you have an issue against Islam/Muslim women. Stop kidding yourself that this is about clothing because you're not fooling anybody else.

Oh and how on earth were you wearing a hijab if it blocked your side vision?! You are coming across as extremely stupid now.

Why anyone would choose to wear it is beyond me

Unfortunately I think quite a lot is 'beyond you'

surprise surprise as soon as we got back on the flight to London from Teheran and all these whipping off immediately the hated head covering - says it all really

But I thought all the women were oppressed? Why were they traveling by themselves without menfolk? And if they were accompanied by men why were they not being forced back in to the hijab? Or were they women like you, in Iran for work, going back home and removing the hijab as they don't normally wear one..?

Your posts are honestly ridiculous and islamophobic, although you haven't denied this as you know it is the truth. You've ignored any comment I've made calling you out on your bigoted views and instead return to spout rubbish about how 'awful' and 'dreadful' what Muslim women wear is.

muhajaba

Thank you for answering, that makes sense now!

Lass - you need to examine your own voice sometimes too. Currently feeling for a young woman on another thread who I think you belittled - and with no provocation either

Oh I see, so that excuses you using MRA language? I thought it was bad form to refer to other threads so I am not going to go into that; or indeed some of your comments on another current thread.

But as a woman who likes to cover up as to not cater to the male gaze and be actually comfortable, I resent the word "modest".

I am not modest. I flaunt the fact that I don't have to cater to the male gaze to make a living

And I find this ^ just as objectionable as the comments criticising "modest clothes" As if any women who wears clothes not sufficiently approved as practical or sensible is pandering to the male gaze.

What I object to is the policing of women's clothes by:-

1.Religious zealots, supported by judgemental women, along the lines of "modest" and "immodest"

1. Feminists and women like Eniormous who bore on about how impractical women's clothes are; how idiotic it is for women to care about clothes and that women who actually want to wear clothes they like are just man pleasers.

The comment below and Annie's succinct one earlier are spot on.

I think people take issue with the term 'modest' in this context. It implies that not covering arms, neck and legs is immodest e.g. isindecent, indiscreet, immoral. It is only a short leap from her to blame victims of sexual harassment and rape for their immodest dress etc

It was a horrible experience. Awful clothing. Why anyone would choose to wear it is beyond me

Your unfortunate experience and strange, patronising attitude doesn't take away from the fact that millions of us do make the free choice to wear hijab. I don't think my clothes are awful, I think they're beautiful and I've never had a horrible experience wearing them in over 20 years. When I walk down the street in my pink butterfly abaya I feel like a powerful pink queen Hijab doesn't limit me, I don't think there's anything I want to do that it stops me from doing and I have a pretty active life usually.

strawberry No problem