To think that we don't need a London Modest Fashion week??

[Cherrysoup]

Given that we're not living in the Victorian era?

Then Bill it's got as much right to call it a fashion week as it has modest.

Maybe morally judgemental reseller week (even though it's not actually a week) is more accurate!

I think they will keep naming it this way because it makes money for them.

I really dislike the use of "modest" in this context. A woman on the beach sunbathing in a bikini, or even a naturist on a designated beach, is no less modest than anyone else. To suggest otherwise reminds me of the constant bikini photos on the Daily Fail sidebar where no-one can just walk on the beach, they are always supposedly "flaunting their figure".

If "modest" is used as a unique selling point, a supposed advantage, then yes, it does imply that other clothing isn't "modest" enough. I feel it's rather insulting to women who are, actually, not "immodest" just because they don't conceal most of their body. I don't want the term to become accepted.

Can there be nothing in between modest and immodest?

Well no. Because this is about the attitude these words betray and how some English words work.

There are lots of colours between blue and orange, but Modest and Immodest aren't colours! This is an intrinsically binary way of describing the world. That is to say, if one person categorises some clothes as modest, he or she is also implying that all other forms of clothing he didn't find modest are... immodest.

Right. Fine. People are allowed to have opinions. However, people are also allowed to be very offended when someone implies their clothes are immodest, and it really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone when they are Very Offended.

TaraCarter See to me modest and immodest are like black and white and I do think there is a grey area in between! It seems I'm in the minority on this one though, I actually had no idea until I read this thread that people see it that way. I'm sure lots of people who buy, wear and talk about clothing that they call modest would be really surprised, because I don't judge people who don't dress like me, and I'm not the only one.

Chippednailvarnishing said

As I posted upthread the definition of modest includes reference to impropriety and indecency. Which isn't a label to apply to women's clothing

That is exactly the point.

I don't think the event is very much geared towards Muslims. I can see these clothes being worn by any culture/nationality.

Some examples I found on Twitter from the event. There will be more obviously Muslim clothes.

What Derek said - there's a large community of orthodox jews in Gateshead and the common outfit among the women is nothing like that. Think stereotypical librarian, even among the teenage girls - sensible, not tight fitting, below knee skirts and flat shoes. Most of the women wear wigs, which covers the keeping hair covered rule. Navy blue is the base colour of most outfits. No bright colours and, it would appear, no black.

modest and immodest are like black and white and I do think there is a grey area in between
Which doesn't actually make sense to me.

But who are you to decide if another woman's clothes are immodest? To go back to the actual definition of the word, the definition of immodest includes;

not considered to be socially acceptable by most people, especially concerning sexual behaviour
-an immodest dress

So therefore you by deeming another woman's clothes immodest are saying they are not socially acceptable and sexualised?

I don't think the event is very much geared towards Muslims. I can see these clothes being worn by any culture/nationality

There were some stunning pieces. I liked these but hell will freeze over before I buy clothes marketed as "modest"

See to me modest and immodest are like black and white and I do think there is a grey area in between!

Yep, this is the problem, as chipped says. You can't claim that 'modest' clothing doesn't separate other clothing out into a 'judged' immodest because you've just done it! You might claim not to judge people that don't dress like you, but you've just said that you think some of them are 'immodest'. And even those you don't actually judge as 'immodest' you see as being in a grey area tending more towards immodesty than your clothing. That all sounds very judgemental to me, even if you do put a comment about not judging on the end.

Lazy and hardworking.
Generous and mean
Honest and dishonest
Tolerant and intolerant
Modest and immodest.

So therefore you by deeming another woman's clothes immodest are saying they are not socially acceptable and sexualised

but you've just said that you think some of them are 'immodest

I have said twice now I think on this thread that I don't judge what other women wear and that I think there is something in between modest and immodest, so I don't understand the point. If I think something is modest or immodest then it's modest or immodest for ME, based on my religious beliefs and my interpretation of what correct hijab is. I couldn't care less what other women wear and I don't know why my words keep being twisted just because I have a different opinion.

If you weren't judging people you wouldn't even consider labeling a woman's clothes modest or immodest.

I don't believe for one minute that you don't understand the point or that you don't judge.

I have said twice now I think on this thread that I don't judge what other women wear and that I think there is something in between modest and immodest, so I don't understand the point

Your use of "modest" and "immodest' and "somewhere in between " is judging.

You appear to have a different dictionary from the rest of us. Here is the dictionary definition. It is extremely offensive to categorise women's clothing in this way.

^lacking humility or decorousness.
"his immodest personality"
synonyms: indecorous, improper, indecent, indelicate, indiscreet, immoral; forward, bold, brazen, impudent, unblushing, unchaste, unvirtuous,
shameless, loose, wanton; informalfresh, cheeky, naughty, saucy
"her clothes and manner were most immodest"

My clothes are elegant, stylish, beautifully tailored, quirky and expensive. They are not "modest" but your definition means you probably think by saying that I'm wearing tight mini dresses and low cut tops. ( not that there is anything wrong with that if I were)

Why would I bother lying on an anonymous forum

We all judge, chipped Everyone has varying thresholds of how much flesh we expose or conceal, and we do judge others on our own 'standards', whether they're wearing hot pants or a burqa. We're all judging each other.

We all judge, chipped Everyone has varying thresholds of how much flesh we expose or conceal, and we do judge others on our own 'standards', whether they're wearing hot pants or a burqa. We're all judging each other.

But how much of a moral element there is to that judging is highly variable. Not everyone judges other people the way you are suggesting.
If I see someone with a top cut so that there is a highly unusual amount of side-boob on show, to the extent it's nothing I've seen before and is eye-catching, it will make me stop and think about whether I think it looks good or not, and potentially wonder what the motives might be behind choosing to a) make it and b) wear it. But I would not judge the wearing of it to be moral or immoral.

Lass You have no idea what my definition of modest is.
I came on this thread to try and give a Muslim/hijab wearers perspective, the idea that you and other posters think that thousands/millions of English speaking Muslim women judge what you wear because we use the word modest in relation to our own clothes is ludicrous to me, most of us don't give a stuff.

I do judge. Do i like what you're wearing? How you're wearing it?

I don't judge on your morals, your sexual behaviour, your levels of impropriety or indecency, your levels of social acceptability by the clothes you choose. Which is what modest and immodest in reference to clothing is referring to.

vestavirgin
"But as a woman who likes to cover up as to not cater to the male gaze and be actually comfortable, I resent the word "modest".

I am not modest. I flaunt the fact that I don't have to cater to the male gaze to make a living. That's showing off.
^^^This expresses perfectly how I feel about the topic. I love to read that others feel like this too.

We all judge, chipped Everyone has varying thresholds of how much flesh we expose or conceal, and we do judge others on our own 'standards', whether they're wearing hot pants or a burqa. We're all judging each other

Speak for yourself. I love clothes. I notice people who dress well and look good. In the restaurant I was in tonight there was a young woman wearing short flowered cotton shorts, black tights and high over the knee boots. She looked fantastic as do some of the models in this show.

I damn well don't judge a woman by how much or how little clothes she is wearing.

You have no idea what my definition of modest is

Definitions are fixed and not subject to opinion. The word I think you mean is interpretation.

Lass You have no idea what my definition of modest is

You are right there- because it seems to be a new and unique meaning not found in any English dictionary. Tell me are you Humpty Dumpy? Words get to mean whatever you decide they mean with no reference whatsoever to usage, custom or dictionaries?

Chipped it was Lass who called it a 'definition', muhajaba just repeated back to her