Am I being unreasonable or is my sister?

[isitginoclock]

So a bit of a long one. My sister split up with her husband, around 3 years ago and moved back to the family home so she can be near family and have support. My dad died years ago and it's just my mum on her own. She's in good health but getting on a bit (76) and on the whole, in good health. She does love having them around and seeing her grandchildren every day, which is nice.
My sister came over to see us and stay last night as the kids are on half term. We were talking about family stuff and I can't remember how we got into it but I was just saying how sad it would be to sell the family home when mum died. She looked really shocked and basically said that she thought she was going to stay there and it would t be fair to kick her out of her home, and there was no way that she could afford somewhere else (she works as a teaching assistant at the kids school part time but mum pays for EVERYTHING else - food, clothes for kids, bills etc).
My husband and I were a bit shocked, as far as we were aware the will was that the house and everything was split 3 ways.
Can she contest it? Can mum change it (Even though it was dads will before he died).
I'm not being grabby... It's just the pronciple of the whole thing that she's assuming the house is now hers?
Does anyone know where we stand on this?

Why would you kick your sister out though and make her homeless? I think she has a good point (not withstanding that your mum might live for years yet).

I am always amazed at how anyone who wants to discuss such things before a person dies is seen as grabby, yet its a fact of life! We are all going to die and if there is a foreseen issue, surely it makes sense to discuss it beforehand.

My parents have been scrupulous in their wills, leaving everything 50/50 me and my sister, we have discussed it and I would have no problem bringing an issue like this up with them if I needed to. I think that the OP needs to have a word with her mum about what her sister is expecting, she has the right to work out a solution that she is happy with.

YANBU. Your sister is taking the piss.

Firstly your mum could be around for another 20 years. Anything could happen in that time. Your sister could have a completely different life by then, with plenty of money and a house of her own. You could have divorced and be potless. Would she then be happy for you to get everything?

I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about wills etc, and age has nothing to do with it - after all, everybody with any assets should have one, whatever their age.

Who is the third person though?

If your mother has any sense she will leave the house and any money to a good cause then none of you will have anything to be bickering about.

My uncle lived in a huge house in Muswell Hill for many many years paying very little rent. His wife was disabled but her mother was the owner of the house and just let them stay there. He just assumed that he and his wife would be allowed to keep the house after his DMIL died shock even though the mother had willed the house to her 5 children equally. In the event his wife died before her mother but when the MIL died he had the cheek to refuse to move out and even tried to see whether he would be able to get a share of the house!

Obviously quite a different story to yours OP. I think it's a difficult one. If you are all to have a share in the house equally then perhaps your sister could buy you and your other sibling out? Or she could pay you rent to keep on living there. I wouldn't want to leave her homeless though.

So your mother isn't even dead yet and you were causally discussing selling the home I just find that wrong and I can't imagine it being something I'd talk about while my parents are alive

Of course your mum can change it, She can leave her house to whoever the hell she likes.

Your Mum could live 20 years, have to go in to a home and sell the house to pay for care, your sister could meet a man and move out next month.

Your d sis isn't a dependant as she's an adult under 65 physically fit and able to work.
The grandchildren will not be able to claim this either.
Your d sis should be considering her future.
The situation that's more likely is if your mum needed care while she is still alive - as the council would expect the house to be sold to pay the care home fees and her living there would count for nothing. Unless of course your mum doesn't actually own the house.

My Mum died suddenly at 77. Luckily she had made her wishes clear beforehand and left a will (and all documents neatly in order in a shoe box) so my sister and I were able to sort things out with very little problem.

Dh and I have also written very detailed wills as he has three children from a previous marriage and we have three together (and our house originally belonged to me) so we had to make our wishes clear.

I think your sister is being very grabby and demanding. The problem is your Mum can do what she likes - leave it to your sister or leave it to the donkey sanctuary. I don't see what you can do about it?

So your mother isn't even dead and your already arguing over who gets to do what with the house, I do find that in bad taste and I hope my dc will wait for me to be cold first.

Right now it's a non issue really isn't it? Your Mum could end up in a home selling the house and paying for care, they the pair of you get nothing! Your Mum could decide that none of you are getting the house and leave it to a cats home, your sister may meet someone or change jobs earn more money and move out

Berthatydfil in the eyes of the law she IS a dependent if she is unable to finance herself and her mother has been. Having rewritten our wills recently and discussed exclusions we were told that in a situation such as the OP has described her sister would be considered a dependent.

A lot depends on the terms of your father's will and the basis on which the house is owned. If the house was solely in his name and he left it on the basis that your mother could live there till she died whereupon it would go to you and your siblings, then your mother can't change that. However, if the house was in joint names it would have automatically passed to your mother's sole ownership on his death and she can do whatever she want with it in her will; likewise if he left it to her outright.

My sister is the only one of us siblings who doesn't have a good job and her own home. She lives with our parents. We've already had the conversation and decided that she'll keep the house if anything happens to them. She's our little sister and the rest of us aren't wealthy but can manage without the money. She would have nothing without that house and it took the rest of us (we are five in total) minutes to make that decision and it was unanimous.

Your sister would struggle I imagine as a teaching assistant without that house. My sister is also a teaching assistant and would find it difficult to manage on her salary without support from my parents.

it's up to your mum, not you or your sister. when it comes to it all your circumstances might be very different. not worth worrying about it now.

Why would you kick your sister out though and make her homeless?

Why would it make her homeless? She would have her one third share of the proceeds which should be more than enough as a deposit on somewhere else. In a few years' time her children will be old enough for her to get a full time job which would help with a mortgage and, as pointed out, she may be living with someone else anyway.

Sister should be getting support for the children from her ex, not her mother.
I suspect that the topic of wills will be being raised by the sister fairly soon, even if the OP doesn't!

I find it extraordinary that so many people think it is wrong to discuss this issue in advance.

I wonder how many of you would be happy for YOUR children to be variously disappointed/feel rejected/have massive rows causing family breakdowns, because you have not sorted your wills clearly and made your intentions known to your children?

I think being fair is very important, although this does not always mean being exactly equal.

Actually, on reflection I think that it is important for your Mum to ensure she is happy that she has her affairs in order and has considered the possible future difficulties of her will potentially being contested. The most I would do in your situation is say 'Mum, have you reviewed your will since Dad died to make sure you are happy, and so your wishes are followed in the future?' However, I would not mention this right now, as it would be crass following the discussion with your sister.

I didn't discuss wills with my parents but I don't think it's indelicate to do so. Now the subject's come up it's not going to go away!

What did your father's will stipulate?
The fact is, your sister's family circumstances changed and the recent living arrangements may have altered your mum's thoughts on the matter.
And if ever the care home scenario ever arises then you all know what the situation is.
Better to have a clear, formal picture now before the stress of grief and high emotions.

(I know people who protested at others being calculating or insensitive when it came to questions of inheritance but they very quickly made it their business to scrutinise the small print when later there were bequests and assets to distribute).

Common sense says, "Don't spend an inheritance before you know you have it".
Tread carefully.

you can't talk about how someone ELSE'S assets are going to be split between you. none of your business.

if your mum is open to a discussion, by all means but it's HER house. not your sister's, not yours.

I am a solicitor and do this sort of thing for a living.

Things your Mum need to think about are as follows:
a) your sister could potentially have a claim against your mum's estate if DM leaves it three ways (presumably you have another sibling?). The claim arises under the Inheritance (Provision for Dependant's)Act 1975. Dsis can claim that she has been maintained by your mother for more than 2 years and therefore has a right to an additional payment to cover her housing needs from the estate.
b) your Dmum may be liable to IHT (depending on the value of the house). If she waits until April to die then she will potentially have a nil rate band of £850k but this would need to be checked against her individual circumstances. Anything over £850k would be taxed at 40%. If your Dmum left the house to her, would your Dsis be able to cover the IHT payment or would the estate have to cough up the money from elsewhere? Is there any money to do that?
c) Fairness does not always equal equality.
d) If your mum needs care, would your sister look after her? This could potentially save many thousands in care costs, potentially saving you (the final beneficiaries of the estate) money. Should she receive an extra share of the estate to reflect the "work" of looking after your mum in her declining years?
e) If mum does need care, and your Dsis can't provide it, then the house may need to be sold to fund her care, unless your Dsis is over 60. The Council won't care, they just need the nursing home fees paid.

Your Dmum needs to think about these problems now before they become an issue. FWIW, I would recommend transferring a (one third/ one half?) share of the house into Dsis' name now, thereby protecting her against a potential care cost in the future, and meaning that she already has her inheritance in the bag. I would suggest a will leaving the remainder three ways, so that DSis either has to buy you out or she can sell up and use the proceeds as a deposit on somewhere cheaper.

Is she really a dependent when a factor in her not being able to support herslf might be the fat that she works part time?

Is it a way of the house not having to be sold for care fees if necessary in the future?

As for those saying the mother is only 76, yes I agree.

My Dad has more than ten years on that.

Sadly my mum didn't make it to ten years younger!

At least now the sister knows not to assume that she is going to get gifted an entire house!

Parents age and children need to deal with that. 76 in good health was how I'd have described FIL a couple years ago. Until the day he had a stroke. Thankfully he has mostly recovered but as MIL couldn't manage without him, we've had to do a lot of planning. Similar for my parents. Lots of my friends' parents have died this year - it's like 2016 for non-celebrities - so all this stuff is on my mind. My parents are thinking about future downsizing again so often phone me asking if I would like X (either now or later) or if not, they'll sell it.

It's most likely that OP's parents had mirror wills, so if she looks at her father's will it would say what happens on the death of the first parent, and then what they wished for after the second one.

DOesn't matter whether she works 70 hours a week or spends that time watching Jeremy Kyle all day. She lives in the house rent free, therefore she is being maintained by Mum.

Gifting some of a property to a child when there is no need for care in the forseeable future will usually protect that share against care home fees. Depends on the COuncil as to whether the parent's share is protected; I have won against our local Council where I argued that the parent's share of the co-owned property was not worth anything and shouldn't be taken into account when assessing care home fees because nobody would want to buy a half share of a house with a random stranger.

But at least you would have protected the share that Dmum has given to Dsis if you do it now.