To think my Dad has been radicalised?

[Februaryrat]

My Dad was a teacher back in the day. A Guardian-reading, mostly apolitical teacher.

He has a (hate to use the word) redneck friend in the USA whom he Skypes regularly, and whom I believe has radicalised my Dad. Over the last three years, my Dad now believes:

• Climate change is a hoax (obsessive hatred of windfarms)
• Hilary Clinton is a murderer
• Brexit is the way forward because some of "them" (mostly Romanians when pushed) are committing 70% of offences around here (they aren't) and the press isn't allowed to report on nationality of offenders (they are)
• The NHS is being brought to its knees by health toursits
• Trump is a businessman who is likely to give the USA exactly what it needs, and will be re-elected to great acclaim at the next election.
• The Mexican wall is a good idea
• Why don't more Muslims condemn terrorist attacks?

I am a hard-left feminist, who is finding it harder and harder to have conversations with him that don't end in mud-slinging.

His "source" of news is often what I would consider to be conspiracy websites. I am willing to accept sources of news from anything I consider reputable - and would consider any mainstream media including (spit) the Daily Mail, but the websites he comes up with seem to me to be run by nutters spouting nonsense.

As a previous teacher in a subject where critical thinking and reading was key, it astonishes me that he isn't able to see past the bullshit - but perhaps he thinks the same about me in my left-wing bubble.

Anyone else's parents been radicalised? Any hope, or do we just have to stick to conversations about the weather now? Shit, we can't even do that because of climate change.

And as there are bad parts in every culture and religion, there are good parts too StubbornStains. However, if you are emigrating to a Western culture you have to adapt those elements that are not compatible and assimilate into the host culture. I would never live in an Islamic country because I believe I am every bit as good as a man and see no need to cover myself to prevent rape. I feel the onus is on the rapist not to rape me. I also am agnostic and not a fan of chopping bits off my kids genitals.

In Western society you are free to believe any religion of your (or your parents) choosing but we also have UK laws that need to be upheld. Most halal slaughter is prestunned here, but kosher is not. That there is a loophole that doesn't sit well with me. I don't believe British Muslim women should be forced by others to cover their bodies, including their heads. It should be the individual who chooses. I have no problem with arranged marriage (three of my friends have had them, two are now divorced but that's a whole nother story) however, forced marriage is abuse.

Why come to the West if you are not prepared to take advantage of its freedoms and opportunities?

As for taking responsibility for the actions of murderous Islamic fundamentalists, yeah it stinks but we're in the same boat. Germany wears the Nazi Holocaust like a sackcloth and as White British we own our part in slavery. Am I personally responsible for this atrocity? No. Do I think it was a good thing? No. However, I hang the shame round my neck in association with those who committed these heinus acts.....and it sucks!

Many atrocities have been committed in the name of Western cultural values (for some reason King Leopold and the Belgian Congo is the first one that springs to mind here)

Why not go back 400 years and beyond! I am speaking of recent times, the last 100 yrs or so and where the West and UK are NOW. We had our Dark Ages, then went thru Reformation and Enlightenment, industrialisation, women's right to vote, women's right to have a mortgage without a guarantor, better equality and more senior positions in the workplace, etc etc.

Compare that to the best example you can think of that exists in Mena. No comparison.

I prefer neither, and we can fight against both, although probably more effectively against that which is happening in our own country

It's not our business what happens in other countries. What is happening in Europe and in our country is a creeping parallel society being allowed, where its draconian attitudes-beliefs-practices are given 'permission' to exist and proliferate via exceptions and exemptions being bestowed on some of the recently-arrived by our various govts.

as White British we own our part in slavery

That time has gone. Slavery was always endemic in Africa and Arabia and is still there in its current form. The Arabs were the middlemen between African tribes who had captured another tribe, and the white purchasers.

Europe and North America became end users. All of this was wrong, but I am talking about the incompatibility of people today who hold regressive and cruel beliefs emigrating into Europe.

We can do whataboutery going back centuries. I am saying that the development of some peoples who come here is many, many years behind our 'live and let live' sensibility, though the Regressive Left continues to try to demonise people who do not hold the same views. They do not simply believe that someone is wrong in having a different opinion, but that they are wicked. That's the difference, and it's called totalitarianism.

Round of applause to DianaDors88 for speaking total sense.

Very good point about the Holocaust, Sleep - I think that it's misplaced Holocaust guilt which has driven the current open borders "we will cope" mindset of Angela Merkel and her acolytes.

They do not simply believe that someone is wrong in having a different opinion, but that they are wicked. That's the difference, and it's called totalitarianism.

Is it buggery totalitarianism. Can you imagine saying that to someone living in Pyongyang or Raqqa? "I understand your pain, my friends! You live under a murderous totalitarian regime that brutally starves and tortures dissenters to death, but I once had someone call me a racist on Mumsnet!"

If you want the freedom to say that Muslim immigrants are a dark invading horde hellbent on ruining white European society, you're going to have to accept that other people also have the freedom to say "well that sounds disturbingly racist." That does not mean they are brutally repressing you. I appreciate it's not nice to have people say things about you that you don't agree with, and that maybe it makes you feel sad sometimes, but it does not make them the Thought Police and it is not equivalent to the repressive power of a totalitarian state.

Petronus16, you're right, I know nothing about the white child trafficking ring in Liverpool. Tell me more.

Sleep, my apologies, I've tried to find the original story but so far without success. I do remember the group included a teacher and a solicitor and operated much like the men at Rotherham.

In my search I came across this, “In a socially deprived inner city area of Liverpool 50 children were taken into the care of the local authority after being abused.” British Medical Journal, Saturday January 26th 1985
as well of reports of abuse at various Liverpool institutions.

It happened all over the country and if you want a sickening half an hour google the activities of Peter Righton, a man considered a child care expert and government advisor.

I can't help feeling the ethnicity issue in Rotherham was/is a convenient smoke screen, an excuse by those in charge for not doing anything. The fact remains that when it comes to sexual abuse, the authorities have consistently (until recently) failed to do anything, which is how Catholic Priests got away with it for so many centuries.

There are so many stories of men resigning from homes, schools, etc., and easily getting a job in a similar institution. They resign when found out, to avoid being disciplined and sacked, weak managers let them get away with it.

Catholic priests exactly the same. Time and time again being moved to another parish and continue abusing kids.

Change of emphasis, also came across this,

“Two people made up 'baseless” allegations of Arab men going on a rampage of robbery and sexual assault in Frankfurt on New Year's Eve, police said after investigation.” The Times, Friday February 17 2017, p35.

53rd - Do you know who coined that very apt description? It was Maajid Nawaz, an ex-fundamentalist. Here is the Wiki def of Regressive Left. It's been in use only 5 years, so you make not be up to speed with its meaning.

It is not a simple difference of opinion, but rather a close-minded attitude born out of ignorance and a need to support an ideal regardless of anything. The RL believe that anyone who thinks differently is not only wrong, but also either wicked or barmy.

""Regressive left" (also formulated as "regressive liberals") is a political epithet, used as a pejorative to describe a section of left-wing politics who are accused of paradoxically holding reactionary views by their tolerance of illiberal principles and ideologies, particularly tolerance of Islamism, for the sake of multiculturalism and cultural relativism.

"British anti-Islamism activist Maajid Nawaz used the term in 2012 in his memoir Radical: My Journey out of Islamist Extremism to describe "well-meaning liberals and ideologically driven leftists" in the United Kingdom who naïvely and "ignorantly pandered to" Islamists and helped Islamist ideology to gain acceptance. In a 2015 video presentation on the Internet forum Big Think, Nawaz elaborated on the meaning of the term, saying that it describes "a section of the left" that has "an inherent hesitation to challenge some of the bigotry that can occur within minority communities for the sake of political correctness, for the sake of tolerating what they believe is other cultures and respecting different lifestyles".

The RL are not in Pyongyang or Raqqa, they are here and actually inhabit several political parties, in quangos and especially in State education.

I sympathise too. Any discussion about Brexit, Trump or the NHS has been vetoed when I see them now because it simply becomes a bloodbath when those subjects come up.

Petronius, sounds like you're more upset about the two people who made up the story than the fact that on NYE over 1000 sex attacks actually WERE committed in Cologne, and another 400 in Hamburg (my friend's daughters were out there that night so I actually have eye witness accounts) and other attacks happened throughout German towns. A similar attack was foiled in Helsinki. Hundreds of girls were assaulted at a festival in Sweden and the police covered it up for nearly a year. I've lost count of the single-victim attacks where women and children have been assaulted in swimming pools, toilets, the street. I read the German news and it is a serious problem caused by the rapid ingress of men from a totally alien culture and who have no respect for women. It is not racist to point that out and to ignore it is cowardly and shows a total disregard for women.

Re Rochdale etc, the prosecutor himself, Nazir Afdal, pointed out the role that culture played -in the tribal patriarchal attitude of the men who thought their white victims were worthless, and the fear of accusations of racism that stopped police and social workers from getting involved. It doesn''t mean there aren't abusers of all backgrounds, but there was a definite cultural factor here that is all the more troubling as most of the men involved were British born.

I have no fear of talking about this kind of thing, not just because I'm older, but because I know many great Muslim women who have no tolerance for the shit that's tolerated by white liberals on their behalf - segregation of the sexes, veiling little girls, parallel justice systems that deprives them of equality -and I know which side I'm on.

If you want the freedom to say that Muslim immigrants are a dark invading horde hellbent on ruining white European society, you're going to have to accept that other people also have the freedom to say "well that sounds disturbingly racist."

Fuck, seriously, how does that compare to those on the left raising genuine concerns. I mean jesus christ. ( sorry about the blasphemy ).

(ps. Islam isn't a race, it comes in all colours )

Feck intolerance.

shins - I thought that Petronius was talking about NYE this year, 2017. May be my mistake ......

The Cologne et al sex attacks on NYE 2016 did happen. There are at least 10 threads on MN about it as you know.

Yes Dianadors and fake news is never excusable. My point was that her post seemed to be minimising the real attacks, and creating a straw man argument where it's as if we don't know that sexual assault happens across all cultures. We do know that of course but we should be free to discuss the cultural factors at play here, both in the attacks and the cover ups.

The only reason mass assaults didn't take place in cologne this nye is because there were over 1000 armed police brought in to prevent it and a very good job they were too as hundreds upon hundreds of MENA men turned up again with the sole intent of repeating last year's horrific game of taharrush gamea. Many were recognised as perpetrators of last year's sex assaults. Even then some women were attacked just not in great numbers, well not in cologne, many attacks took place elsewhere in germany and Austria. Of course the police were then accused of racial profiling.
So now we have a situation where women in certain parts of Europe can only go out and party under armed guard. Anyone with a suspicious mind would be forgiven for thinking merkel actually planned this, what else was she expecting, a bunch of hard working law abiding citizens?

I know many great Muslim women who have no tolerance for the shit that's tolerated by white liberals on their behalf - segregation of the sexes, veiling little girls, parallel justice systems that deprives them of equality -and I know which side I'm on

Care to cite any concrete examples of "white liberals" "tolerating this shit"? I'm not entirely sure that your convenient Muslim women friends would have much tolerance for the Islamophobia on this thread either..

Bullet point the Islamophobia please. For clarity.

Note the Europhobia on here.

Wow, you've called me a liar stubbornstains so I shouldn't really engage but...how about Guardian journalist Gaby Hinsliff's disgraceful piece about the Cologne attacks where she appeared to sympathise with the poor vulnerable men let loose among those modern girls with their expensive smartphones? How about the fact that FGM has been illegal in the UK since 1985 but there hasn't been a single prosecution? How about the disappointment of Iranian feminists trying to fight compulsory hijab while Swedish female politicians ignore their request for support and wear hijab during their visit this week? This shit goes on all the time.

Anyone with a suspicious mind would be forgiven for thinking merkel actually planned this, what else was she expecting, a bunch of hard working law abiding citizens?

I for one have a suspicious mind and have at least one talent - and that I thinking outside of the box. Merkel knew it was going to be chaos, and she knows that many will never seek work because some of the newcomers do not want to work for white Europeans. They will find work off the cards, but will never be contributors to the pension fund of the future. That, by the way, was a lame excuse and barely believable.

We are at last seeing the workings of Globalisation, or a One World Govt, or a New World Order - whatever name you care to give it. The EU does not support small business such as a local shopkeeper or baker, and wants those aspects of life to be served by conglomerates with fancy cute names to convey that your local store is still small-scale and independently owned, when in fact it is part of a huge chain. It's already done here by supermarkets (calling their fruit & veg produce XX Farm) but what I mean is that EU's intention is for NO small businesses to exist.

But I am off topic, and will now revert to OP's Dad's problem.

Yes, stubborn, educate yourself about how Sweden appears to be capitulating to the constant sex molestations in that country, esp. in the south. Swedes, a friendly open people, inclusive of everyone, but their good nature has been abused because they made a mistake and thought the newcomers were like them.

Sweden is definitely done for.

www.unwatch.org/walk-shame-swedens-first-feminist-government-don-hijabs-iran/

"Sweden’s female leaders ignored the recent appeal by Iranian women’s right activist Masih Alinejad who urged Europeans female politicians “to stand for their own dignity” and to refuse to kowtow to the compulsory Hijab while visiting Iran.

"Alinrejad created a Facebook page for Iranian women to resist the law and show their hair as an act of resistance, which now numbers 1 million followers. European female politicians are hypocrites,” “They stand with French Muslim women and condemn the burkini ban—because they think compulsion is bad—but when it happens to Iran, they just care about money. They go to my country and they ignore millions of those women who send their photos to me and put themselves in danger to be heard. And [the European politicians] keep their smile, and wearing hijab, and saying this is a ‘cultural issue’—which is wrong.”

I love Masih Alinrejad's FB page, I've learned a lot from following it.

Yes, shins, she's a great gal. Pity she is not supported by govt women who could have made a statement by entering and leaving Iran in their regular Western clothes.

Have been following but not contributing today, as posts mainly seem to be a more left-wing, right-wing battle (or right-wing, right-wing back patting) neither of which I really want to get into.

An interesting question was asked though - if Dad had become radically left-wing and held similar conspiracy theories, would I be as concerned? Honestly, probably not. Partly because I don't think any of the left-wing theories cited (Trump's potential genocide, WWIII) are provably wrong - you can't prove something wrong if it hasn't happened yet. (Though hopefully obviously I hope it won't happen and don't expect that it will.)

But also because it would be a less marked shift for my dad (left wing to extreme left wing as opposed to left wing to extreme right wing), which is in essence, what this post was about - his views shifting.

I have also noticed he has become less good with technology and technology product review - less able to mentally sift the Amazon reviews to exclude clearly paid-for reviews. He refused to listen to my advice about an computer problem last week, and it turned out to be the exact issue I had specified.

He actively avoids dissenting voices/media - and if I do try to fight fire with fire, he won't believe my facts as they are from the mainstream media who "just tell lies".

If it was simply "I think the wall is a good idea" or "Brexit will be brilliant", I would be happy to debate with him - these are opinions. But he will argue things that are provably wrong (70% of crime in his town is committed by Romanians) and will not allow any alternative information to reach him. He shuts off from anything that gives an alternative view. I know we are all guilty to an extent on this (pick your poison: Guardian or Telegraph), but as a previous advocate of critical thinking and reading between the lines, I find it hard that he seems to have abandoned that completely.

When did it become right wing to defend women's rights. When did a dislike of enforced female submission become right-wing. Must have missed that memo.

Diana yes, I was talking about 2017, though I admit that paragraph does look a bit strange on the page. I hope to post tomorrow to explain.

No doubt Cologne 2016 did happen.