To think my Dad has been radicalised?

[Februaryrat]

My Dad was a teacher back in the day. A Guardian-reading, mostly apolitical teacher.

He has a (hate to use the word) redneck friend in the USA whom he Skypes regularly, and whom I believe has radicalised my Dad. Over the last three years, my Dad now believes:

• Climate change is a hoax (obsessive hatred of windfarms)
• Hilary Clinton is a murderer
• Brexit is the way forward because some of "them" (mostly Romanians when pushed) are committing 70% of offences around here (they aren't) and the press isn't allowed to report on nationality of offenders (they are)
• The NHS is being brought to its knees by health toursits
• Trump is a businessman who is likely to give the USA exactly what it needs, and will be re-elected to great acclaim at the next election.
• The Mexican wall is a good idea
• Why don't more Muslims condemn terrorist attacks?

I am a hard-left feminist, who is finding it harder and harder to have conversations with him that don't end in mud-slinging.

His "source" of news is often what I would consider to be conspiracy websites. I am willing to accept sources of news from anything I consider reputable - and would consider any mainstream media including (spit) the Daily Mail, but the websites he comes up with seem to me to be run by nutters spouting nonsense.

As a previous teacher in a subject where critical thinking and reading was key, it astonishes me that he isn't able to see past the bullshit - but perhaps he thinks the same about me in my left-wing bubble.

Anyone else's parents been radicalised? Any hope, or do we just have to stick to conversations about the weather now? Shit, we can't even do that because of climate change.

Sorry I haven't read the full thread (I know dreadful sin). Maybe he has always felt this way and only now in the current political climate does he feel he can say it. Would he have made a 'redneck' friend in the first place if they had nothing in common?

It's called ghettoisation SeetheGood and it's a problem

Why do you think people with similar characteristics and who are 'different' to the main population sometimes like to live in areas with people like them?

Loads of groups do it. You see clusters of people with similar views in certain areas.

Thanks for the PrettyBotanicals

Animal Farm – great parallel Sleep

We demand equality for all – until the racism card is played, and then we’re quite happy to stand by and watch women and girls treated as second-class citizens, while marvelling at our amazing tolerance and cultural diversity.

Yes Amisparticus, lots of ethnic groups 'cluster' for solidarity, including the white British ex-pats in Spain (ha! Beat you all to it!) but is seperating oneself condusive to social cohesion?

And what about the displacement of those who have lived in a area selected for settlement, perhaps for their whole lives? They see their own infrastructure disappear to be replaced my another cultures necessities (SeetheGood mentioned Indian supermarkets and mosques). Do you see how this behaviour is isolating and frightening for vulnerable people? Can they speak out and say they preferred it when their home was surrounded by familiar people with common interests? We've already ascertained that they cannot. So what's the answer?

Kooky said When Intolerance of Intolerance is seen as intolerant something is very very wrong

Every society has draw a line at what is acceptable, and newcomers have to adapt. To me the support of FGM is not acceptable and I will not tolerate anyone trying to make a case for it. Nor honour killings to save families from 'shame'. Nor forced marriages that happen back home, toddler girls wearing hijabs and long robes, school age girls taken out of PE because physical activity might break the hymen, Sharia law being made legal in this country to run parallel to English law, the parents of male pupils agitating for their sons not to be taught by a female teacher, etc etc.

Does Kooky think that there should be a legal exemption for those families who followed tradition and killed a daughter because she had 'shamed' them in some way. Is that what you mean by being intolerant?

...we’re quite happy to stand by and watch women and girls treated as second-class citizens, while marvelling at our amazing tolerance and cultural diversity

Exactement, Limer! That is typical Regressive Leftie thinking .... you know that mindset that paradoxically holds reactionary views by their tolerance of illiberal principles and ideologies, for the sake of multiculturalism and cultural relativism^

Supporting multiculturalism trumps everything for them, and commonsense is out of the window because not all cultures are equal folks, however much some of you shout that they are. For example, some of these RL or totalitarians would be on the case of a wife-beater if he was a white Brit, but somehow that's not as serious in a MENA culture because that is a man just chastising his wife, which is seen as quite normal in that culture.

I agree, Sleep, people will always cleave to where their own kind already resides. Every immigrant group has done that, i.e. for years the Poles favoured Ealing, but that is no longer the case.

But once an immigrant family is established (from the next generation) there is no need to stay within that town or neighbourhood but they do. Look at Leicester and how that city's people have been replaced. It saw a huge increase in immigration by Asians in the 60s and 70s who settled there, raised families and their children & grandchildren for the most part still remain there. Instead of their British-born descendants moving away they prefer to stay in that milleu because every type of service and product is to hand. Therefore money moves around and stays within a tight demographic.

To me the support of FGM is not acceptable and I will not tolerate anyone trying to make a case for it

Do you support MGM?

Do you mean male GM as in circumcision? No, but then that does not take away from sexual pleasure. Infibulation - the most extreme of FGM - sews up the outer labia, leaving a small area for urine and menstruation. When the woman goes into labour, the sewed up area has to be cut open. After birthing, the husband demands that she is sewn up again, until the next delivery.

But I can see from your question that you do not think FGM is all bad - is that right?

Look at Leicester

OK, I'm looking. Now what?

This again? Yawn!

For the record, I do not support male circumcision for non-medical reasons.

However, male circumcision is not used for the purpose of castration.

FGM is female castration. It involves the removal of the cliterous (and sometimes the stitching up of the vagina). It's purpose is to stop the female from experiencing sexual pleasure.

The equivalent in MGM would be to remove the glans of the penis, not the foreskin. There is no intention in male circumcision to make the male sexually impotent.

Do you know why it's done? Female genital mutilation is a cultural (not religious) practice that ensures the wife is faithful, no point having sex if it is painful or there is no pleasurable sensation to be had from it.

Do you see the difference Justanotherposter?

Exactly, FGM is control, MGM is, it is said, for cleanliness. Some American men are circumcised too for that reason, and also some parents believe the penis looks 'nicer'.

Supporting multiculturalism trumps everything for them, and commonsense is out of the window because not all cultures are equal folks, however much some of you shout that they are. For example, some of these RL or totalitarians would be on the case of a wife-beater if he was a white Brit, but somehow that's not as serious in a MENA culture because that is a man just chastising his wife, which is seen as quite normal in that culture.

Don't suppose you'd care to provide any solid evidence for that last assumption, would you, Diana Dors?

Oh, and to counter your example of Leicester as an example of how immigrants never leave the area in which they're raised (not that I see why this is a problem, but anyhoo ), could I offer you.....Spitalfields? Colonised by French Huguenots, who eventually assimilated and moved on, then by Eastern European Jews, who eventually moved to other parts of London, then Bangladeshis, who are starting to spread out and move further East.....now it's all about the hipsters (of various colours). There's a building on Brick Lane that started off as a church, became a synangogue, and is presently a mosque (unless it's closed down and turned into an artisan bakery since I last went ). How poor, how grim, how boring would our culture be without our immigrants?

And also......not all cultures are equal folks.

Really? So, what, like white Anglo Saxon Aryan culture being superior to, I dunno, those decadent hook nosed people from the Middle East who have never produced anything of intellectual value and have a clear agenda to destroy our superior culture, for example?

I'm sure that rings a bell, somehow.....just trying to put my finger on it

Some cultural and religious practices are not compatible with Western ideals StubbornStains.

If your primary interest is Middle Eastern accomplishments, start with the origins of algorithms, named after Al-Khwarizmi, a 9th-century Persian mathematician. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_ibn_Musa_al-Khwarizmi

If your interest is more aesthetic, the work of Kahil Gabran is breathtaking en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kahlil_Gibran

My favourite poem below;

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

To be frank, some Western cultural and religious practices are not compatible with Western ideals.

Two examples that spring to mind are the C of E's refusal to accept practising homosexual clergy, and the shockingly low level of rape accusations that lead to a conviction in the UK.

There is room for improvement in every culture. In that we are all equal.

Exactly stubborn - those peoples you mention have moved and spread out. Some prefer to stay put and create a city of their own. It works for them.

If you do not understand that not all cultures and their practices are equal, then there is little point talking to you. I did not force my daughters or son into a marriage. I did not ask the Head that my girls sat apart from the boys in class, I did not discourage my kids from bringing home white kids, I do not support kosher and halal slaughter. You are clearly sensitive about your background, but there is no need to be. I am speaking of co-existence in the UK when practices-habits-beliefs are so contrary to British sensibilities - one of which (fairness in procedure) is something that my foreign parents cherished.

C of E's refusal to accept practising homosexual clergy

I think throwing gays off tall buildings is somehow more shocking than the above, don't you think. We have debate in this country, but I do realise that you are a novice to it. You're scraping the barrel with that example ......

I have a very similar situation with my mum.

Advice I have found useful is to think of yourself as a sort of David Dimbleby figure when politics comes up in conversation- ie you don't engage personally in the debate and try to win it. Instead you simply ask questions and try to draw out what his views are, and those questions can be challenging (pointing out inconsistencies etc).

shockingly low level of rape accusations that lead to a conviction in the UK

Sure, stubborn. In other parts of the world, women who have been raped are put to death - either by stoning or beheading. Do you prefer that to piss-poor conviction rates in this country?

Hi Op in answer to your original question I think as you get older you are just happier to say what you really believe and are less PC. I find now I am 50 I don't care about being PC and I also have a lot of beliefs esp about religion that when i was younger I would ignore but now will speak out about.

In other parts of the world, women who have been raped are put to death - either by stoning or beheading. Do you prefer that to piss-poor conviction rates in this country?

I prefer neither, and we can fight against both, although probably more effectively against that which is happening in our own country.

However, I feel that we have no claim to cultural superiority whatsoever. Any religion or culture is capable of committing atrocities. Many atrocities have been committed in the name of Western cultural values (for some reason King Leopold and the Belgian Congo is the first one that springs to mind here). Regarding any culture as "lesser" is taking the first step down a very dangerous road. Although, looking at your posting style, I would say that you've taken a few more steps than that .

As I got older I realised my youthful ideals didn't work. Multiple cultures do not mix in practice. Large scale population movement causes tension in the area that accepts new arrivals, especaily when there is existing pressure on social infrastructure