...to be actively avoiding the inlaws?

[Meepicheep]

Short answer is probably yes, but I'll give you a bit more detail.

DH and I met in the first year of university (18 years ago) and from the off my MIL didn't like me - because I'm Welsh. She could just about manage a polite conversation with me (I would occasionally visit during holidays) and then slag me off to the OH. Because he's awesome, he'd back me up. She doesn't like anything to do with Wales because her father drowned there when she was a little girl. I totally accept she probably has untreated PTSD from this and therefore a lot of tongue-biting has gone on over the years when she says things that show a lack of empathy for other people. When the OH asked me to marry him, the MIL and FIL refused to talk to him for a whole summer. BIL was supportive of my OH at the time and remains the same - backing up my DH when my inlaws claim they were never horrible to him.

So, we bumbled along for two years at university. In the third year, because of rising rents, the OH lived with me and my parents. Inlaws were happy with this arrangement as it saved them money.

In the January of the third year we decided to set a date and the first date we could get was November. Excited, I went to buy a wedding dress and the OH spoke to his parents about the wedding. Their reply was basically "don't care, don't approve." I tried to talk to my future MIL around end of January about the wedding dress (it was a bargain, she loves saving money) and she very literally turned her back on me and walked out of the room.

Not long after this the OH was told I wasn't good enough for him because I came from a benefits family. Both my parents had worked, my mother giving up to be a SAHM and my father taking early retirement to become her carer when she developed MS (I was about 17). So, yes, we were on benefits - but so what? I'd made it to uni (though I lived at home) and both me and the OH were lined up to do teacher training the year after graduating.

Roll forward to September. We have actively tried to engage the inlaws in all discussions - asking them if we can book them a hotel, explaining that it was a cold buffet (all my parents could afford), asking what type of flowers they liked - she in particular was great at changing the subject. In September we gave them a copy of a weddin invitation as a keepsake. They said that was the first time they realised we were serious and would make it 'if they could.' Do I need to add that they were quarter of an hour late to the church and went home before the evening do?

Still, to this day, they will argue that they didn't find out until September and would have liked to be more involved - which is BS. We tried. I even showed her the design for the invites and she blanked me.

We gritted our teeth an cracked on with things. My mother got progressively worse and ended up in a nursing home, with Dad facing huge bills (social security at time were rubbish and he was told to sell the house to cover the nursing care which made him homeless - and yes, I did point out he shouldn't). He got a small flat. My mother in law's reaction? "It would be better for everyone if she was dead, really, wouldn't it?" On Christmas Eve. At a family Christmas I hadn't wanted to go to.

Well, the MIL got her wish and my mother died not long after. The same week we were burgled. So, not a great time. Zero help there, but the inlaws did attend the funeral the third and last time they spoke to my dad).

There's other stuff too - insisting that we spend Christmas with them or they sulk, epically. Trying to play happy families by insisting on family holidays every Easter (and until I couldn't take it any more, every August too) on the basis "we're paying you should be grateful" and always booking the place before asking us. Yes, we could have pre-empted and said no, but the backlash about how we (I) had split up the family was rarely worth it.

By now, about nine years into marriage, the inlaws had stopped being openly hostile about me and things calmed down. There was a happy pretence of happy families and we'd see them every month (my father would see us a little less frequently as we live closer to inlaws, an accident really due to where my first teaching job was). I got pregnant - so, yey, first grandchild and all that and was due on 25th July. A few weeks later they said "hope you don't mind but we've booked a holiday for the 23rd as we will save 200 quid on the holiday." What can you say at that point? They'd paid in full and logic says baby could be late or early. The OH was really hurt but by now we were well used to having to do things by ourselves.

On the evening of the 22nd, my DS was born and not to put too fine a point on it, I nearly died. I lost 2 litres of blood and my blood pressure kept dropping - it took until 9 in the morning to stabilise and doctors told us later they'd sent the OH home to sleep "because they fully expected him to be looking after a newborn alone." Cheery thought. Anyway, he called his parents to tell them they were now grandparents and that he was worried about me - he's not an idiot, he knew something was up.

His dad complained he'd woken him up early, that they didn't need to be up for two hours.

Their home, the hospital I was in and the airport are located in such a way that they could have made a half hour detour to see their grandson (maybe comfort their son?) before heading off on holiday.

The thought didn't even cross their minds.

When their flight was delayed by thirteen hours - thank you, karma - they kept calling OH up to complain about it (meanwhile I'm having blood transfusions and can't move in the background). They also blamed my DS for turning up early as to why they couldn't come and see him.

DS is now five. In the interim the BIL has got married (triggering another argument with inlaws about our wedding) and the BIL and new wife have had a baby. Our DS is not neglected by grandparents and they babysit for us twice a year (sometimes Valentine's Day or thereabouts and usually around our anniversary).

However.

MIL has become more vocal about things she doesn't approve of. She's always been racist - e.g. she would cook a curry and while we're eating she would come out with "better than those immigrants cook, don't know what they put in it." She also thinks that the Jews play up the Holocaust too much and that "it was so long ago they should just forget it now."

We of course argue - but it's genuinely pointless. There is a non-negotiable - she's entitled to hold those (vile, horrible) views but she is not to express them in front of her grandchildren (BIL and SIL agree with us).

Of course the MIL and FIL voted Leave and we voted Remain (I'm not going to argue that all Leave voters are racists, that's just stupid, but MIL is an example of one who is). Cue the FIL shouting at my DH that he's a traitor and stupid for voting Remain.

There was an apology and eventually some sort of platitude about how 'it will be alright' and not to worry about our jobs (both have left teaching, both of us are reliant on the EU not falling apart).

Meanwhile MIL has announced that she thinks I've done well losing weight since DS was born (I know, I was shocked) and that running clearly worked because "you put on too much weight with DS really."

Actually I didn't - was size 12 when I got pregnant and size 14 after about eight months post birth. There was a period of PND (couldn't exclusively breastfeed - milk never kicked in properly so DS was combination fed) so I did fill out to size 16 after that. And lost the weight again - but actually, who cares? I was healthy during pregnancy and had a 9lbs skinny baby.

I'm (finally) pregnant again. At 24 weeks I had a bleed and bizarrely spd kicked in during hospital stay. FIL picked up DS one day from school and announced "can't see you going much longer, you're huge now." Actually I'm in size 14 maternity clothes, but thanks for that. Thanks for saying I'll have a massively premature baby. Though I've had to rely on other people, friends and other mums when I can't do the school run, we've decided not to ask inlaws again. It's not worth the background comments about my weight. Even on Christmas Day the MIL turned around with "well people didn't know I was pregnant with your BIL until the month before he was born."

Baby bump two is now huge (7 months) and tbh I don't want to see my inlaws. All the unnecessary nastiness, the thoughtless comments, it's not worth it. The midwife has said I'm measuring correctly, I'm healthy, she doesn't think I'm massively overweight at all. OH has taken DS to visit grandparents. I was 'tired' that weekend and in any case he was going out with friend and it was nice for them to get some alone time with grandson.

After all the stuff we've let them rant about in the past, it sounds petty to say I can't be bothered with them for the next nine weeks. But I really can't - I'm so tired of all this, and of them. Don't want the background stress or bitchy comments any more. And certainly not for the next two months!

"I think we persevere because DH can remember when they were nicer than this."
That's called 'rose-tinted glasses'. Plus, when you're a kid, you have nothing to compare your life to. Everything you experience is normal. Well, normal for you.

You, having had better parents, could make the comparison. But, now that you've been subject to their behaviour for EIGHTEEN YEARS you too have normalised a lot of this. I am not the only one reading your posts, totally aghast at what you have accepted. Because she's worn you down over time. Your boundaries were pushed and you pulled them back, pushed and you pulled them back, again and again until frankly you barely have boundaries at all now. You may have noticed how many people are pointing to her saying it would be better if your mum were dead. My jaw hit the keyboard at that too. People are focussing on that because it is so beyond the pale they cannot understand your lack of reaction to that. Personally, I think she had you well-groomed by then. FFS, spending every summer and Easter holiday with them? Why would you do that? Why? Because you were trying to do the right thing. But why would you think that was the right thing to do? Because they told you? Because your husband wanted to? Because you feared their reaction?

"I know we both need to be more assertive when saying no, this isn't acceptable, for the sake of our kids. It's just harder to do than it should be especially when you know you'll always be the one they blame rather than take a second to consider why they're driving us away."
Exactly this. You need to be more assertive. And I know it's difficult when they've ground you down for so long. but it needs to be done. And why do you care that they'll blame you? Leave them to it, who gives a toss when you won't be there to hear their grumbles? You've said before you don't want to be the bad guys. Why? Why is this a consideration? I do care about what some people think of me. I don't care about what an arsehole thinks about me. All their opinions are shit, so of course their opinion of me would be shit too. So I don't care.

"It is easy to think "well, we've managed so far, why are we suddenly saying ENOUGH!!!?" leading to second guessing whether that is the right reaction. Is it reasonable to bin them after all this time?"
In what way do you think 'the straw that broke the camel's back' doesn't apply to you? Are you in some sort of parallel universe? No, and you're under no obligation to continue putting yourself into an unpleasant situation with unpleasant people, just because you gritted your teeth and put up with it before.

"More importantly, if we do, how do we explain to our son that he can't see his grandparents again (and he adores them, because they are always on best behaviour around him)? "
That's the only tricky bit IMHO. But children pretty much adore anyone who spends time with them. It doesn't actually mean they'll miss them if they're not there. You can explain that gran and granddad have been horrible to mummy and daddy and you don't want to see them until they've apologised. (Which obviously will be when Hell freezes over...) Play it by ear. You know in your heart that if they're not screwing him up now, they will in the near future. Protect your children from them.

"The guilt at cutting off contact would be horrible, not least because the OH's father would be upset (MIL would just be her usual charming self)."
Honestly? Fuck his father! Your arsehole MIL did not act alone. She was aided and abetted every step of the way by her arsehole husband. He has never stopped her, never stood up for you and indeed had a paddy at your husband for his Referendum vote. His is not an innocent in this farrago.

As for guilt - protecting yourseves is not something to feel guilt about. It is something your PIL have encouraged you to feel though. Eighteen years. They've had time to fuck your reactions up good and proper.

Life is too short and too exhausting tbh you, your DH and even your DS will be happier without them in your lives...

congratulations and hope the rest of your pregnancy is ok.

Op societal pressures often make us feel like we have to have GP we have to keep bonds with people who can treat us badly.

I have read some astounding In law tales on here, I have added my own tragic issues with mine, but this op.

Its too much.

I lost my DM too and I know how not having your camp any more can make you vulnerable and that your dc are missing something but this is too much and too cruel.

You say your DH is on board which is brilliant but I wonder if a relate session to talk soley about your in laws would also help - they will give you tips on how to deal with them, get boundaries up, and how to tell them your not happy or simply back away from them.

My own MIL has been deeply un pleasant to me, but after she made a rude comment about my deceased DM that crossed a line with me. I think the comment she made about your mum should have been your red line too. Good luck op, its possible and worth it to push back agaisnt this nastiness and in fact you would be surprised at how many family members and friends of theirs feel sorry for you - because often people this extreme are known to be. Dont worry about being the bad guys worry abour your marriage and your dc.

My jaw hit the keyboard at that too. People are focussing on that because it is so beyond the pale they cannot understand your lack of reaction to that

Yes I agree, you need to examine your reaction to this. Amazing post by whereyouleftit - amazing.

I would say though there is no need to go into details with your son, you can literally just gently fade them out. I had relatives DC enjoyed being around, we just stopped seeing them, no need for big announcements , a few times DC said - when are we going to see x...we said they were busy and that was it - no mention of them at all. So - i wouldnt go for big dramatic speeches....just be busy...that goes for in laws as well.

Hi Whereyouleftit.

There was probably quite a lot of worrying about their reaction early on regarding holidays - we were still trying to have a functional family, and perhaps we were too young to say no and sod off at the appropriate times. I thought they'd normalise over time - that they couldn't have possibly produced my husband if they were that manipulative all the time. They are very apt to take offence if told 'no' as well. Very much along the lines of "there's no need to be like that, we only thought you'd like a..."

Regarding the comment about my mother, I confess I was floored by her saying it. Like always, it was a 'normal' conversation - I was in the kitchen with her and FIL (think I had taken my coffee cup in, doesn't matter) and he asked how my parents were. I explained that Mum was worse (she couldn't talk by that point) and of course they knew Dad had sold the house two years earlier to pay nursing home fees. I said Dad was getting my cousin to drop him off and pick him up from the nursing home on Christmas Day.

Then she made the comment about how it would have been better all around if Mum was dead.

I couldn't reply, especially when she continued with her catchphrase "Do you know what I mean?" that usually gets trotted out when she's said something awful (which leaves two options - reply no, and make it appear you don't understand so she'll explain in more depth, or reply yes and apparently agree. I've moved towards "I understand the point you're making, I just don't agree with it " these days).

The shock of someone actually saying that to me wore off and I walked out to the living room, where the OH asked what was wrong and I dragged him upstairs o explain. Had we not both had a drink, we'd have driven home that night. As it was we packed and decided to go in the morning.

We could overhear a quiet argument (might have involved eavesdropping after we heard a shout) where FIL was saying "you can't say that!" while MIL was adamant that there was nothing wrong with observing that my father wouldn't have lost his house and my mother wouldn't have had such a miserable existence, if she had just died before going into a nursing home. FIL did come to find us (feel free to imagine a comedic sneak back upstairs) and asked if I was alright.

Come to think of it, I think we might have travelled from Wales to the inlaws that morning, so I would have been tired too. Probably why I answered no, but was prepared to accept his apology that I'd been upset by her. He asked us not to let her comment spoil Christmas, so we stayed until after lunch before heading home (two days earlier than scheduled, but couldn't stay there). He does a good kicked puppy impression, my FIL.

It's the bizarre combination of her genuinely not seeing how fucking awful her comments are, coupled with the passive aggressive "we've already booked the holiday/she didn't mean it/don't spoil Christmas" that is obvious in black and white, but difficult to deal with in the heat of the moment.

Maybe because I am too pacifist I don't expect people to be like that, therefore I have no immediate comeback. It is beyond my comprehension as to why you would say that to someone whose mother is terminally ill, even if you thought it, let alone why you would then try to justify it once it has caused upset.

As an update, DH is home (and currently bathing my son, because that's Daddy's job). Without prompting, or any mention of his parents to me, he opened a conversation with, "so, Mum now thinks I need reminding about Mother's Day a month in advance" before showing me a text from her doing just that.

He's already suggested sour grapes, wilted garage flowers, a casket to store her cold, dead, heart in, and so on. All without prompting. Followed by, "because of course I have no other reason to remember Mother's Day, at all... When are we moving to Ireland? Fuck's sake..."

He has switched off the mobile and is currently debating Obi Wan versus Yoda (while explaining both are good guys) with the little one. Baby is kicking. All is calm...

Well that relationship started badly and then got worse! Don't give them a second thought - and you certainly don't want their "help" with horrid strings attached.

Ask him does he think such an awful woman deserves celebrating.

I'm NC with my MIL.

Similar hurtful offensive comments over 20 years. I just think she's not capable of a functional working relationship. I'm happy to be civil for the sake of wider family but will NOT tolerate any nonsense these days. Had an epiphany that all she wanted was to ruin every occasion and suck the joy out of our lives. Why should we live like that?

Don't look back on your precious baby years with regret that she dominated the time with her nastiness. Don't let special time with your DC (Christmases when they are young etc) be ruined because you are trying not to lose the plot due to something vile she's said or done. You can't get these years back.

She won't EVER be happy for you. Surround yourself with people who can.

YANBU! They sound awful. Congratulations on your 2nd pregnancy :)

I read the first couple of sentences and was going to reply that I completely understood; my mil doesn't like me because I'm not Welsh. But bloody hell OP, mine is like Mother Theresa compared to yours! 💐

I've had a similar experience right from when I was getting married to DH. Constant spiteful comments, about the wedding. They always thought that we were posh and I think that's why she never like me (there reasoning being my parents live in a biggish house, and had two Christmas trees at christmas!! Go figure) Then she moaned we didn't find out the baby sex, so she couldn't buy it anything, them hated her name so proceeded to call her by another name. FIL didn't even know I was pregnant with our 2nd as apparently he doesn't listen to anything my DH says! Now DH doesn't even speak to me, or our kids. I have never let them look after the kids because basically I don't like them, they don't like me, so why should I. I don't need them to. Sure they see them, (generally would always come at the same time on a Sunday when nap time was, moan about it then make enough noise to wake baby up) MIL doesn't drive, then FIL was in an accident and now can't drive so my DH has to take them everywhere even though he works 6 days a week! The final straw was last year when my mum was terminally ill. MIL has always been jealous of my mum, my mum was so friendly with everyone, always got into doing everything plus I am very close to my mum, she was there at the birth of my kids, we saw each other everyday, we always went on holidays with my parents etc, MIL does nothing then when mum got ill, she has never said anything about it to me, never asked how I'm doing it offering to help do house work etc (I was working, 2 kids, helping caring for mum, doing all the housework At their house) the only thing she said and this was to DH was that she will look after the kids when it's my mums funeral, she said this months before my mum passed away. I mentioned to DH that no she wouldn't be doing as one would be at school (if in holidays I would ask a friend) and the youngest I would pay for an extra day, plus I would actually expect her to be at the funeral, offering her condolences and being their for her son! Anyway fast forward to my mum passing away in Dec, she's never said anything to me, not a msg, not a FB comment on my posts about mum. The funeral ended up being on a day when school and nursery anyway, but still did she show up, did she eck! Never said why, we then had a memorial last week, again didn't show up. For all I care she doesn't exist to me now, unfortunately for me though I have a DH who in his eyes his parents don't do anything wrong!! I never want to see them again, I don't particularly plan on doing, only I've just found out I'm pregnant so in 7 months I will have to! 😩😩
Sorry for the long post, needed to get it off my chest!!

That's was supposed say FIL doesn't speak to me not DH, of course he speaks to me and the kids!! 😂

I never comment on these sorts of threads, but YANBU. You have put up with a lot - the comment your MIL made about your mother before she died is very shocking and the fact that your BIL and SIL agree makes it sound as if your PILs are just horrible people. I'd prioritise yourself, your DH and DC and do what's best for all of you. PILs be damned.

"There was probably quite a lot of worrying about their reaction early on regarding holidays - we were still trying to have a functional family, and perhaps we were too young to say no and sod off at the appropriate times."
I can understand your reluctance to disagree with them when you were younger. Hard to believe now but I barely said 'boo' to a goose until I was 30. Since then, I've developed my deathstare and I channel a beloved aunt with a smart mouth as and when required . It's fair to say it comes with practice. You need to start practicing - not the deathstare maybe, but putting yourself and your needs before their demands and nastiness.

"Maybe because I am too pacifist I don't expect people to be like that, therefore I have no immediate comeback. It is beyond my comprehension as to why you would say that to someone whose mother is terminally ill, even if you thought it, let alone why you would then try to justify it once it has caused upset. "
You are a normal person. Nobody expects people to behave like that. We go into a mini-shock when they do. I know my mind has shot off at a tangent in such circumstances, trying to find a logical acceptable reason for what I am facing , before giving up and admitting the horror of the situation. Never blame yourself for not bitchslapping her into oblivion on the spot, a normal person is never going to do that. On account of it not being - well, normal.

OK, so you know by now that worrying about their reaction serves no purpose. You know it's going to be bad. You go against them, she'll tantrum. You acquiesce, they'll hit you with a curve ball when you least expect it. Nothing you can do or say will make these people behave like people. So, with that knowledge - plan to remove them from your life. Be too busy to go around. Be ill (even when you're not). Be shopping! Reduce your contact. Expect the shitty response and let it slide over you because you have decided that you don't want them in your life and you're looking at them as if they're lab rats and you're experimenting on them (by reducing contact, not taking a scalpel to them - although ... ).

It sounds as if your husband is completely on board with how shit they are. This is good, you are a team. And I think you need to have a team talk. Talk about how you would like your lives to be; for you, DH and your DC. And talk about how to achieve that. It won't be pleasant, they will ramp up the nastiness to bring you back to heel - but you can escape them.

Meepicheep so many elements of your story are eerily similar to my life. I went NC with my toxic (now ex) ILs about 2.5 years ago.

I am so much happier now