To be ashamed of the Labour Party leadership

[20nil]

Long term member, did not support Corbyn, but even I am surprised by quite how bad he's been.

Where is the opposition? I get that Brexit is difficult, but where is Labour on the collapse of the NHS, the explosion of homelessness, the decimation of local council funding and the ticking bomb that is school funding?

Why is it that we now look to the Lords, the Cof E and petitions to be the opposition?

Shocking state of affairs.

Piglet, that is partly a sign of Corbyn's failure I think. As the analysis below suggests, many of that core vote are not going to like his friends, associations and baggage. I am in the urban group but don't either and I couldn't understand why some friends thought it wasn't an issue in the country at large.

I don't know, Make. I think they don't like chaotic democracy much. As other have said, the Tories run a much tighter and more authoritarian ship. The Blair govt was very popular though for much of its time and won an election after Iraq. And I think it did change a lot, especially on the NHS and education and in communities, even though more could have been done and that too many were left behind. It was a much slicker beast though.

The idea of small c conservatism changes though. Social acceptance of atheism, working mothers, co-habitation etc ... are relatively new but seem almost standard now.

Like women's suffrage, basic workers' rights like holiday and maternity pay, and universal health care, the left does the work of securing them, the right generally resists but incorporates them fairly seemlessly when it becomes clear that the majority support them.

I wish Labour would get better at celebrating what they have done and showing that what was once considered radical policy and was resisted tooth and nail by the right, was worth the fight.

Yes yes yes 20nil.

A question - genuinely, would you rather have a centrist Labour government with a personable leader as previously discussed, or Tory government with Labour in opposition for however long it takes to get a hard left government elected?

Can I have another option?

We are a small c conservative country that's why a left wing Labour Party has never won an election

And agree we are still living with what Thatcher did but that is part of our socity now it can't be undone unless we pay a huge price and many people simply can't afford to and many would choose not to this is what Corbyn doesn't get

And yes I agree 20nil for some on the far left anything done by Blair-Brown can't be celebrated becuase they took the party more to the centre where they won three consecutive elections but that's not good enough

Make do you think Labour can win the next general election with Corbyn as leader of the party

Yes or No ?

make, I'd like to think you would have in real life.

But in the interests of this most interesting discussion and trying to find out where the common ground is - of those two, which?

I can see how cross you are, but err where is the challenger? I'm more concerned that not one well known Labour MP has had the balls to stand against him. I think they need to take a good hard look round the party and choose a credible choice for leader to stand against him. Tbf hes been elected twice and the opposition he faced was pretty poor. Someone needs to step up. Tbh though, many of Corbyns political judgements have been on the right side if history so I actually quite like him in a refreshing sort if way. Hes not your regular Etonian, Oxbridge toff.

Princess, agree entirely there's v few likely successors. Quite possibly because they can all see Labour's fucked for the next ten years and don't want to be Labour's IDS.

But saying JC's different when he's spent his entire career as a politician is pushing it a bit, I think.

They have stood up to him and been forced out to the back benches, threats were made from his supporters.

There was no point in putting forward a really good candidate last year as Momentum were running the party and still are and but it feels as though things are shifting. Our only hope right now is that he will step down (and rumours are going around). If labour lose seat/s next week most sensible people would think he would have to

JC is a career politician from a privileged background. There are talented MPs from all parties who are not - listen to Alan Johnson on the subject - he knows. I think Iraq casts a long shadow when it comes to successors as many of the most experienced voted for it. And whoever takes over may well have to resign the day after the next GE.

Make, no you can't have another option . Seriously, I really would like to know what you think and I promise to think carefully about what you say.

Exactly, no point in a new challenge now when bulk of new membership would vote for JC even if Obama stood against him! They're saving the really credible candidates for when, as Enthusiasm says, he stands down/election results are so bad they can no longer be blamed on the PLP or the MSM/the new members drift away.

They should have waited though. Last year was not the right time to challenge as it was always going to give JC a boost.

When people use JC I instantly think Jesus Christ!

JC thinks he's Jesus Christ! And above answering the questions of BBC journalists! Centrist labour party every time. Blair-Brown did some great things domestically, especially on NHS funding and education and I find it distressing that this is all written off. I couldn't even vote for a party that was going to go into coalition with a JC run mob, he's a privileged lunatic who as far as I can tell has never done a proper day's work in his life.

Couldn't agree more fake. I know the accepted wisdom is to hate Blair and the war was a disaster but labour did a lot of good domestically when in power - schools rebuilt, sure start etc. Also agree about JC I could not vote for him.

whatever his policies, that private eye sketch a few years ago of them trying to run up an escalator as well as being hilarious epitomized for me their inability to execute anything. He can't run the labour party, he's no good at building consensus, lacks any sort of leadership skills.

oh was HIGNFY, not PE!

I think the LP could do a lot worse than take on board some of the comments and ideas on this thread. Seriously. I wonder if they keep an eye out on what is being said on social media?

Tanith totally agree wrt the self flagellating/navel gazing narrative.

Rugby glad your Mum enjoyed the lasagne!

There is an article in The Independent about next weeks elections could signal the end of Corbyn leadership (let's hope) to read some of the comments you would not be mistaken for thinking some believe Corbyn to be some sort of messiah

Apparently it will be the Blairites fault if we lose Stoke for putting up such a weak candidate All that's coming to light about Paul Nuttall and that's Blairites are the issue

Seriously, I really would like to know what you think and I promise to think carefully about what you say.

First, I think there are other plausible and immediate options. Having read the Green Party's platform, this call for environmental-based communitarianism...it is viable. A more Nordic model could easily be adopted (though it isn't El Dorado). There are other ways if Jeremy's models seem not to fit the bill.

Two, I think what we need in Britain is a thorough and heartfelt examination of what we want to be. We need first-and-foremost to bury the Empire. It wasn't that good, and it is gone. It is what it is. This doesn't mean we are of less value.

I firmly believe that Great Britain's chief strength is in science, and always has been. I usually launch a long laundry list of British (and immigrant) led scientific discoveries, but it can get tedious. It is not in real estate or football. I think with technology and rationality Britain can absolutely be any thing it wants to be (not an Empire, however).

I think as individuals, and I think this is of utmost, vital importance, we must each look closely at ourselves and ask "what makes me content/happy?" The answers will vary greatly, but I think there will be common themes:

We want to be safe, and for our families to be safe. We require a certain amount of food and clean water. We require, at our latitude, clothing and housing to keep us warm and dry. Our species seems to function better given a certain mental stimulation, be it from study, work or socialising with others. Our society functions better when we receive care when we are sick or old or disabled. These things make us feel secure and safe, vital for contentment/happiness. Loving another person and having them love you.

There are other things. Transport, consumer protection. Heck sewage and rubbish removal, not glamorous it's true. There may be comfort in material items, a warm cup of tea, a song. A holiday. There is nothing wrong with that, we are human.

These things make me happy. But how can I fully be content if I know that these basics are not available to others? I would, in fact, enjoy them much more, and be more content, if I knew everyone had these things.

And crucially if I expand my wants, my requirements for happiness, too far away from these things, what does that say about me? Could I be perfectly content with three houses knowing that there were some without a room?

I am not sure that we are viewing things the right way around at all. Why not turn it all over and make as our goal that every person has these basic requirements for happiness and contentedness? I think we can do it.

And I think once this is done, everything else will be a marvellous and wonderful treat. Everything added on top of that could be enjoyed fully, with the knowledge that no one is doing without those basics requirements.

Apparently it will be the Blairites fault if we lose Stoke for putting up such a weak candidate hmm All that's coming to light about Paul Nuttall and that's Blairites are the issue

There have been things come to light about the Labour candidate aswell in all fairness.

Labour were wrong to select an anti Brexit candidate in one of the highest Brexit voting areas in the country.

That however is nothing to do with Blairites, which just seems the go to whenever Labour are in trouble.

Ok people, so we are clear that the majority of you here would not vote for him, but you really need to stick your necks out and say who you believe would be a credible leader. Names on a list...

Dan Jarvis
Alan Johnson
Kier Starmer (although probably too early)
Jess Phillips (although same as Kier)

For starters

Oh and Stella Creasey and West Streeting ( too soon for him though)

That's all very nice Make but most people do not have the time and energy for such navel gazing when it come to politics they are too busy earning a living and with life

They want a party that will benefit them now and the near future

You may not feel comfortable owning three properties others while see it as an investment for their children's future we can put the brakes on people owning numerous properties (which ironically the Tories have done with but to let) but what we view as a fair world isn't universal. I don't think you will find many people who don't think every one is entitled to basics even those that opposed long term benefits