To ask you to help me argue with an anti-vaxxer on fb

[GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick]

I know, I know. But it's Saturday night, DP is out and I am just home whilst our (fully vaccinated!) DD is asleep.

What do I say to someone who is convinced that we should all do our own research, that vaccines are only about big pharma making big bucks, and that the govt hushes up vaccine damage??

Yep owlina - it's so easy only to think about yourself/your own family. Which is understandable, we are all just trying to do the best for our kids, at the end of the day.

But everyone taking different views and making different decisions can have a big, big effect on more vulnerable people in society.

Polio is another example. The vaccine has been so successful that people forget it was called "The Crippler" for a very good reason.

You don't say anything to them ( I count myself amongst 'those' people)

If you want to inject god knows what without any research whatsoever into your child, you go ahead. Your call as a parent.

Some I have injected. Others I have steered well clear of.

Overall though, I like the fact that 'anti-vaxxers' actually do look into what they're injecting. I find it somewhat bizarre that people who are so pro-vaccine generally have no clue whatsoever as to what's in that needle. Cue lots of FB updates a day later - my baby is so poorly, high temp, just not himself blah blah. What did he have? Oh just his regular injections. Well, what exactly? Well the ones you have when your baby is 16 weeks etc etc So you don't actually know what was in that needle??

Some people are incredibly naive though to believe that everything we are pushed to inject is for our own good. Why on earth does a 1 yr old need a rubella jab???

Nobody bats an eyelid if your child gets chickenpox (even though there is an available vaccine) yet if your child gets measles, omg, why weren't they vaccinated, how dangerous/stupid etc etc. Both illnesses can be mild. Both illnesses can be serious. Total media control over how most people react to them though?

Whooping Cough - my son contracted this and was incredibly poorly, kept in hospital. Very nasty. Before everyone loses their mind, he had been vaccinated. It didn't work clearly.

I'm confident in my choices and the vaccines we have had, and the one we haven't. I don't feel the need to justify this to anyone. All I would say though, if you had met a parent of a vaccine damaged child (try my mum) you would have very different views to the ones you have now.

I dont think he's lovely. I think he is self involved and dangerous. He and his mate are either convinced they are right, or trolling.
Every time they convince someone not to vaccinate they put a childs life at risk.

I wouldnt play along with them. And I'd stop calling him lovely.

Overall though, I like the fact that 'anti-vaxxers' actually do look into what they're injecting.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

As explained above, a 1 year old needs a rubella jab because a 1 year old can spread rubella and it can cause unbelievable harm to a developing foetus if that child sneezes or coughs near a pregnant lady whilst having this mild and harmless disease.

If you're medically qualified to do the research and to analyse the studies, that's amazing, and if you find something solid, please share it.

If not, sorry, you didn't really do any research. You relied on herd immunity and other people having the jabs to ensure that your kids were safe.

Some kids react badly to vaccines and yes it's a lottery and that's awful. But statistically they are far more likely to suffer from measles (she says, as someone whose parents thought she was going to die at 2 years old with encephalitis caused by measles and who was "bloody lucky" not to lose her eyesight according to the dr) than for the jab. The only reason it feels safer is that most kids here do have the jab, so your kid's chances of catching the disease are greatly reduced.

Polio is another example. The vaccine has been so successful that people forget it was called "The Crippler" for a very good reason.

Sadly it was the live polio vaccine of the 70s that almost killed me. I am sure the more recent vaccines (that are not live) are safer, but still, vaccines of the 70s were still peddled as perfectly safe back then. It's a bit like the ads for washing powder that washed "whiter than white" back in the 70s yet nowadays are "even whiter than ever before"...

There is a school of thought (albeit largely among anti vaxxers) that polio is still rife, but has been redefined as several other illnesses, such as meningitis, chronic fatigue syndrome etc which have seen a sharp increase in cases since the (so called) eradication of polio. I have no idea whether there is any fact to this at all, but it does make for interesting reading.

Chicken pox is a mild childhood illness which is best caught during childhood. Of course there are going to be some instances where serious complications arise, but those are minimal, and certainly not indicative of the fact that CP is a deadly disease which we should all rush to vaccinate against. In fact you could easily compare risks of chicken pox to risks of vaccinations, and yet the response is so different

In my family two children have died from chicken pox related complications, previously healthy normal kids.

The've done studies into it - you cannot reason with science deniers. Best just ignore them and let natural selection take them out ;)

If you are totally cynical you could think of it as the NHS going for the cheapest possible option. So they have not rolled out chickenpox vax as the cost of vax would be greater than the cost of treatment of complications. They have rolled out meningitis to the high risk group only as it is not cost effective to vax everyone

It is my understanding that the nhs do not offer the vaccine (unless the person has close contact with someone who has suppressed immunity) for two reasons,

1. Cost
2. They believe that repeat exposure to kids with chicken pox boosts shingles immunity

In my family two children have died from chicken pox related complications, previously healthy normal kids.

I think that was the point being made though. It can and does kill (sadly) and I was lucky that my own baby survived cp (hospitalised for 17 days in total) , but I was lucky to survive a severe adverse reaction to a vaccination. Risks on both sides.

Maybe this person has a vaccine damaged relative?

Although I think vaccination is generally a good thing, there are some people who do become brain damaged as a result and it has nothing to do with Andrew Wakefield. But those people are vulnerable as well as those too unwell to be vaccinated.

Whether you like it or not he has the right to do what he feels is best for his child. Most of us only vaccinate because we assume our child will be ok and will not be damaged. But some people are damaged and there's no getting away from that.

As the parent of a severely mentally impaired child I can tell you here and now that the world was not designed with disabled people in mind. Everything is a fight.

The point being mimi

Is that people appear to be aware that polio is really shit but often appear shocked that chicken pox can be or think people are making it up.

Tell someone you know someone whose child was damaged through vaccination and vaccine damage is a reality for some,) and the response will be "well, the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks. That was obviously only one case, look at all the millions who have their vaccinations without any effects," and yet if you sight a case of a child who was disabled or worse through chicken pox the response is "well, one is one too many, chicken pox has the potential to be a deadly illness, bring on the vaccination."

Totally agree with this. There is a startling double standard in the way the risks of disease and vaccines are thought about by many (most?) of the general population. I think a lot of it does come from not being in a position to understand all of the angles, and the rather naive assumption that everything that is recommended by the DoH must be perfectly safe and absolutely necessary for their child.

Overall though, I like the fact that 'anti-vaxxers' actually do look into what they're injecting. I find it somewhat bizarre that people who are so pro-vaccine generally have no clue whatsoever as to what's in that needle. Cue lots of FB updates a day later - my baby is so poorly, high temp, just not himself blah blah. What did he have? Oh just his regular injections. Well, what exactly? Well the ones you have when your baby is 16 weeks etc etc So you don't actually know what was in that needle??

This really strikes me too. I'm astonished that anyone would allow their baby to have an invasive medical procedure without even knowing what is in it let alone the relative risks and benefits. Many people seem to do more research into their internet provider than into the risks and benefits of substances injected into their child. This lack of parental responsibility seems to be the way the system is set up though, as you're not given the vaccine leaflet until after the jag, if you're given it at all. I fail to see how this is 'informed consent' by any stretch of the imagination.

btw I say this as someone who recognises the value of vaccines and has given most of them, albeit on a slightly different schedule.

Anti-vax and big pharma stems from America where you have to pay for health care. They believe they give you vaccines to make you sick so you keep going to the doctors and line their pockets with money and the big pharmacy people for their drugs.
Doesn't work though in the U.K. , the NHS wants to keep you well and doesn't want to spend money on you and gives you vaccines to see you less and spend less money on you.
Americans are also pro home birth because their system is different. There if in hospital they are under a doctor, and are induced/speeded up as they only have the one doctor, not a whole team of NHS consultants on shift and if that doctor has been working for 24 hours straight and is the only one who can deliver your baby as you are with his office, then he might speed things up to get some sleep. Midwives in America are not the highly trained university educated people we get in the UK.
In the U.K. You can go into labour when we you like, get delivered by a midwive with medical knowledge and see a whole host of doctors if needed, yes you won't see a "named" consultant but that consultant you see will be the one on shift if out if hours and will hopefully have had some sleep in the last 3 days.

It's all related about what your normal is, so being anti-hospital medicalised birth in America is completely different to the UK, the same for vaccinations.

Any illness can cause damage, as can any vaccination.

My particular friend did vaccinate his kids, to the best of my knowledge. He has just now decided, about 10 years later, that Big Pharma is a Thing and that we are all puppets.

Whereas his friend who has jumped on the thread knows "lots of" children with autism and believes firmly that the MMR jab caused it

They believe they give you vaccines to make you sick so you keep going to the doctors and line their pockets with money and the big pharmacy people for their drugs

Yes - this is EXACTLY what he is saying. That and liberal use of the word "sheeple".

Maybe this person has a vaccine damaged relative?

Exactly this, too. I guess there aren't many anti vaxxers who either haven't experienced an adverse reaction themselves, or seen the result of vaccine damage. Converseley, pro vaxxers see relatives suffering from measles or news articles about deaths from meningitis or chicken pox, and if that's what they see and know then of course vaccination is 100% what they believe in.

YouWillNot - I thought vaccinations were free in the US? They must be because children need them to register in school and some families don't have health insurance. Drug companies have financial conflicts of interest in any country. Even in our local hospital different companies try to outdo each other to get them to buy their brand. It's a complex issue.

I agree Mimi. People make decisions on both sides based on their own experiences.

his friend who has jumped on the thread knows "lots of" children with autism and believes firmly that the MMR jab caused it hmm

There are lots of unvaccinated kids with autism too - seem the only link is age of onset and not the vaccine itself. The research was funded by an anti-vax group and they proved there was no link (multicentre, worldwide study with something like 67,000 people - it wasn't buried (it is available through a cochrane search) but nothing more was mentioned about it.

I like this man and his sign

GoesDownLikeACupOfColdSick maybe he's been reading Bad Pharma (Ben Goldacre). It's not anti vaccination at all, but does explain the dark side of pharma. He uses statins as a good example and explains in (almost) layman terms how pharmaceutical companies manipulate results of analyses in order to produce positive results when in fact there were none. It is fascinating.

lottie the fact that they are free just makes some Americans more dubious as they pay for all medical care, and can choose which specialist to go to, can ask for tests and generally get them, whereas here you only get the test based on clinical need.
So they think they are giving you a free jab to keep you ill for life so you keep coming back and they can "peddle" nasty big pharma drugs. It is sad that people have to pay $500 dollars for a life saving epipen.