NHS IVF policy change

[Bambamrubblesmum]

Have you seen this?

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/rip-ivf-nhs-cuts-to-fertility-treatment-will-deny-thousands-parenthood-a6717326.html

I can see both sides of the argument but AIBU to feel very sad that it's come to this

Palliative care is on the whole excellent in this country, but it needs to be improved.

Whatever your views on euthanasia, we still shouldn't end up in a position whereby an insurance company or the NHS, if it is eventually legalised here, will offer to fund your euthanasia, but not drugs which could extend your life for a period of months/years.

That's the danger of relying too heavily on the cost of treatments because there is always a moral/ethical dimension too.

I think one of my problems with IVF is that it really isn't that effective and I've seen friends experience the physical and emotional trauma of it and still at the end, had to come to terms with no baby.

Some are glad that they tried and gave it their best shot, others wish that they had never gone down that road. But should the NHS be funding something that has an average 14% effectiveness rate and could perhaps lead to even more emotional and physical problems, when the underlying cause, infertility, is not in and of itself, life-threatening?

I don't hold with this 'everything happens for a reason' bollox and I think it's especially crass and insensitive to tell people they should just get over it, or adopt (like that's so easy to do) which is why I'd like to see a more effective treatment and better NHS support for the mental health issues that accompany infertility.

It seems that couples aren't properly prepared for or counselled in terms of what happens when it doesn't work.

Niceglass, sorry but may I correct you?. Live births per treatment cycle are around 30% for women aged under 37. (Source: HFEA website) That's actually a pretty good 'cure rate' compared to many other medical interventions that nobody criticizes the.NHS for funding. Yes the success rates fall further as you get older but most women are in the younger age groups.

Also, it's not that traumatic for everyone. I personally found it emotionally tough for sure but not physically that difficult. I think that talking about it as an inevitably very painful process really scares a lot of women unnecessarily. Some people do have s.much tougher time of it, I'm not saying it's a breeze for everyone.

I don't think the problem is that it addresses infertility per se , more that the odds are so so low

I wonder if IVF were a certain % higher effective whether it would be funded ?

It's also very interesting how people handle infertility -
I have friend 1 for who it was unbearable and unthinkable had she not died I think she would have become depressed or spent thousands on surrogacy

Friend 2 processed her grief and is coming to terms with it ,and is pretty happy actually

Friend 3 adopted and it's all worked out amazingly

^ that's why NICE recommend 3 cycles.

Stop our consultant told us that the odds per IVF cycle are pretty similar to natural conception. Hence needing to do 3 before throwing in the towel.

You can freeze embryos after each cycle too to bump up chances. Our twins were frozen embryos off our first and only cycle. The fresh didn't work but a year later the frozen embryos from the same batch did.

If you can't afford ivf- can you afford a child?

I am not saying people should have to fund your own ivf, just wondering how people who say that they could never afford ivf will mange with one or more kids.

It is not unreasonable for the NHS to restrict IVF given that it is so under-resources. What is unreasonable is for us as a nation to be funding the NHS so badly that it has to take decisions like this.

I've never understood the "if you can't afford ivf how can you afford a child?" argument. My ivf treatment and related investigations cost around £20,000. How many people in this country have that sort of money sitting around in cash to spare when they conceive? Yet they manage to bring up the child fine.

I've looked at the current success rate (live births) of the clinic I used and it is about 44% for younger women as long as they get to embryo transfer, which the vast majority of women do. For some reasons for ivf it will be even higher. One of the reasons why nice recommends it is funded is that it has a good success rate.

@mypropertea because paying for fertility treatment involves huge sums up front, for example my spend was £12k ish. That's a huge sum of money to have to amass in one hit. I'm sure most parents who would define themselves as "comfortable" on MN wouldn't be able to get their hands on that sort of cash

I conceived my 1st DC through clomid treatment as I wasn't ovulating. 2nd DC conceived naturally & my cycle has been regular since 1st pregnancy (had never been before, since I started periods @ 11)

I have to take a synthetic hormone every day due to hypothyroidism - my body doesn't make enough of it, I need to replace it through "unnatural" means. I doubt anyone would ever argue that I shouldn't receive this treatment. Well, I don't see that as any different to requiring assistance to stimulate my ovulation.

mypropertea this has been explained upthread. For IVF, you need a lump sum of £5-8k upfront. To raise a child, there are no circumstances under which you need to save such a large amount first - child(ren) can be afforded out of monthly income in the usual way.

There are months of interventions and tests on top of the IVF cycle.We paid £ 200 just for a simple blood test.

There were loads,sometimes weekly.

If you can't afford ivf- can you afford a child?

So you are saying that everyone who has a child has 14-20k in the bank?

You'd better let the treasury know in that case so they can scrap CTC. With everyone having those savings, there is no need for benefits.

Also if you adopt the attitude that if you can't afford IVF you can't afford a child we might as well scrap child tax credit and child benefit than. O wait that affects more people.

As someone else has pointed out, IVF success rates are pretty similar to "natural" conception rates. As a species we're not particularly fertile, we don't need to replace the population every few years like other animals, we don't have a "breeding season" like most other animals, so there is less "need" to be highly fertile with each cycle.

I think "natural" conception rates are about 30% per cycle, which is not much more than average IVF rates of 25%. However, when you strip out the people with severely complex fertility issues, whose success rates are lower and therefore bring the average rate down, IVF rates are pretty darn good.

I think "natural" conception rates are about 30% per cycle, which is not much more than average IVF rates of 25%. However, when you strip out the people with severely complex fertility issues, whose success rates are lower and therefore bring the average rate down, IVF rates are pretty darn good.

A healthy 30 year old has approx 20% a month chance of conceiving

https://www.asrm.org/uploadedFiles/ASRMContent/Resources/PatienttResources/FactSheetssandInfoo_Booklets/agefertility.pdf

For the infertile couple this is clearly significantly lower because after 2-3 years of TTC naturally this rate has clearly declined to fewer than 5%

IVF success rates for the same age group are 32.2% at a national aggregate level

www.hfea.gov.uk/ivf-success-rate.html

At my clinic they are over 50%. At the top clinic in the country they are over 70%

So IVF rates are actually significantly better!

Gah wtf is happening with links! IVF success rates

www.hfea.gov.uk/ivf-success-rate.html

Natural conception

https://www.asrm.org/uploadedFiles/ASRMContent/Resources/PatienttResources/FactSheetssandInfoo_Booklets/agefertility.pdf

I don't think I would have been able to afford IVF and a child. It's like all financial planning decisions; do you scrimp and save for a deposit on the smallest flat, just to get on the property ladder? Without being able then to afford furniture or to ever go out? Or stay in mum and dads house a few more years and enjoy a social life?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I've had this dilemma myself. It's not about being able to afford IVF, it's about using every penny you have, plus getting up to your eyeballs in debt, then knowing you have to raise a child on a shoestring. I don't think anyone who is in that situation would chose not to have their child, but I'm sure there are plenty who look at the eye watering debt and add that to their list of childless woes.

Can you live with the cost of IVF failing? Is a better question to ask, as mums will always get by with little money and lots of love.

Thanks bananafish, I was quoting the figures off the top of my head and my pregnant (thanks to NHS fertility treatment ) brain got a bit muddled!

@mehfruittea well the point is that if CCGs provided the 3 cycles as recommended by NICE (or other fertility related treatments - try to get a laparoscopy and ovarian diathermy on the NHS...) then people wouldn't necessarily be getting into lots and lots of debt.

Cue people saying "if it doesn't work then don't fund it then". It doesn't work for some. The longer it's left, the less likely it is to work.

Sorry to keep harping on about obesity-related type 2 diabetics, but if those who require limb amputations, something like £30k will be spent in the year up to the amputation, and most of the amputees will be dead within 5 years. Half dead within 2 years. So for a lot of people the outcomes are pretty shit, but no one would deny them that care.

A PP said that IVF/fertility treatment has this "greedy" stigma attached to it and of course focused on "childless women" who are being grabby, to use MN vernacular. That's more than half of the problem. "Wimmins issue" and therefore easily discounted.

If you can't afford ivf- can you afford a child?

And again, back to my question (which I still have to had an answer to)...

Tell you what; let me rephrase your question.

If you can't afford to have children privately, as opposed to utilising NHS maternity services at all, can you afford a child?