Neighbour Wars, AIBU?

[TwoTribesGoToWar]

I have name changed for this, for obvious reasons.

Background info:
We live down a dead-end track, at the end of which are two semi-detached houses (one of which is ours) and a recently converted barn. The track maintenance falls between all three families and it tends to get quite pot-hole-y in the winter. Historically, some farmers used to own a big metal shed on the track and the old man of the family who owned it used to potter up every morning and liked to fill in the pot holes a tiny bit at a time and we'd give them some money to pay for the planings that would be delivered periodically (the black tarry scrapings from when they tarmac roads). This worked really well and the track never got too bad. The maintenance of the track fell four ways at that point - us, our attached neighbours, the farmers who owned the metal barn/shed and the property developer who owned the brick barn at the time.

Some new people bought the old brick barn and converted it, then decided they also wanted to buy the metal bar/shed to use for storage. This caused a bit of consternation as they then told us that the track maintenance would now be split three ways instead of four (still with me?). As far as we were concerned, the barn owners should now be responsible for 2/4 of the track maintenance and we stay with 1/4 as previously - we shouldn't have our share increased because they've bought extra property, should we?

Anyway. Now the old man doesn't come anymore obviously, so DH, and very occasionally our attached neighbour, will go out and fill in some of the pot holes, using stone that we all pay for (doesn't need much as often the stone is all still around the edges of the actual holes). The barn owners - who have been here for about three years now - have NEVER helped with this. Their solution is to buy a shit load of stone, hire a bloke for a day and to just smother the entire track, which doesn't actually solve the underlying pot hole problem so they come back again quickly.

This time, that option came up again and DH said he'd rather we all went out there for a couple of hours and filled in the holes with the existing stone. Barn man wasn't happy with this and said he'd speak to the other neighbour and then yesterday there appeared a massive pile of stone and a bloke this morning filling in the holes. He's demanded £130 off us for this. DH has refused and the neighbour has had a massive row with him, telling him that DH wouldn't know a hard day's work if it hit him in the face etc etc etc (DH works incredibly hard but barn man is a plumber so does a manual job). He also threatened DH if we didn't pay - I'll get that money off you, don't you worry mate, you see if I don't.

AIBU? Should we pay for the unnecessary stone and the labour? DH has been out there for 2 hours and has actually done more of the track than the bloke who was hired to do it. I'm absolutely fuming.

Sorry for the rant, but the background info was pertinent!

Ok... is it possible this what he means by he now pays a third? As in he used to pay 1/7 but now it is 1/3?

Yellow's diagram was lovely! My observations (as a property lawyer):

• I'd be very surprised if he's managed to speak to his solicitor today, given that it's Saturday. Unless his lawyer is a close friend. And even then I'd be surprised.

• neighbour disputes are notoriously difficult to deal with and can become very acrimonious, very quickly. If solicitors are involved, this means they can become very expensive, very quickly.

• he can't just decide he only has to pay 1/3 now. He has to pay 1/4 as owner of the converted barn and 1/4 as owner of the metal shed (assuming his title deeds say the same as yours do). His solicitor should have advised him of this when he bought it, and if he wasn't advised of it, then he needs to take it up with said solicitor. Not try to invoice you.

• bear in mind that you will need to disclose any disputes with neighbouring properties if/when you sell your house.

• I'd be inclined to try to get together with all the neighbours to try to come to an agreement, as you don't want this nonsense every time the road needs repairing (subject to the point below).

• might be worth asking a solicitor to check what your title deeds actually say. Whilst you're responsible for contributing to the cost, whose actual responsibility is it to arrange for the repair and/or maintenance of the road? If the responsibility for physically carrying out the work lies with his property, but you are only obliged to contribute to the cost, then you might find yourself in a difficult position if you refuse to pay (notwithstanding that he's arranged for the work to be done without your agreement). You need to be very clear on what your title deeds mean and if you can get your solicitor to get a copy of his too, you need to be very clear on what his deeds say too. You'd be surprised how often title deeds are ambiguous or don't set out matching obligations with neighbouring properties.

You are going to have to pop out and measure it all for us, OP.

I feel your pain - YANBU
I live down a fairly short track that is on land owned by the farmer and there are 2 houses down the track who also use it.
So A to B is the responsibility of both houses and the farmer and B to C only serves the second property so that is their responsibility.
The deeds clearly state that maintenance will be in proportion to the usage
All worked well for the first 4 years I lived here and it was amicably allocated on that basis.
Unfortunately 2 years ago old neighbours moved out and 'wierdly unneighbourly' couple moved in who are building a humungous extension necessitating lots of vans, jcbs, skip lorries and builders merchants delivery as well as them zooming in and out in a pickup and a car daily (my usage is one small car no more than twice a week)
I did comment on their planning application (which they chose not to run past me beforehand) that the track should be made good at their expense (and the gate at the end of the track which they half-demolished) But they seem to think they will tell me (according to their snarky note last year) what my share is
I do wonder what happens to people who move to rural areas and become overly entitled and un-neighbourly and then wonder why people don't bother with them.

Ok, I'm going to have to draw another diagram. I'll make sure it's right this time though ;)

Right, here's my diagram. It's more complicated in terms of what we (our house) are (is) actually responsible for because we own the field at the end of the track and so the final portion is our responsibility alone despite the fact it's outside our neighbour's house. This has no bearing on the dispute at hand though, which is why I simplified it originally. It's roughly 200m long from end to end and the last 100m is split roughly equally.
We've had quotes to concrete the track and it's going to be several thousand pounds, which we are willing to get done but barn man wants to get his own people in and doesn't like showing us invoices for stuff either so I suspect he benefits from his arrangements. We want to get several impartial contractors in to quote for the work too but he's very unwilling to even look at the ones we've given him so far.

Am I being really stupid here? By my maths, that means that initially he should pay 1/7 of the total cost of maintenance to the whole driveway, and once he purchased the second property it increases to a 1/3 of the total.

So he was originally paying more than his fair share and after the second purchase he decided to split it as outlined.

Doesn't explain his bad attitude or lack of consultation, but I'm so confused about this 1/4 figure.

No, he was originally responsible for only a 1/4 of the cost of maintaining up to the first dotted boundary in my pic, then 1/3 of the cost of the second portion and none of the top two sections of the track. Now he's bought the other barn he is now responsible for 2/4 of the first part of the track, plus the other 1/3 he has always been responsible for.

Ok, so when you said in the OP that he was paying 1/4, but now you want him to pay 2/4 (1/2), but he only wants to pay 1/3, you were only talking about the part of the drive from the dashed line? Which would make sense as the farmer would only do that part of the road on his way to the barn and that you and your neighbour have been solely responsible for the bit past the second dashed line? Is that right?

Because his part is much shorter, so if you expect him to pay 1/2 for the entire track to your field that is unreasonable. If you are expecting him to pay half of from the dashed line plus 1/3 of the bit in front of his house, then that is correct as I can see it.

I really do think you are better trying to resolved things yourselves without getting solicitors involved. Once solicitors get involved things will escalate and get expensive. You already have an agreement in place, he needs to understand the agreement. Does he have a wife who might be more reasonable or how about a letter of explanation laid out in a conciliatory manner? You really do need to get everyone's agreement for any work that needs to be done. He can't just decide to have work done and expect you to pay 1/3. That isn't fair!

Moving to percentages - fractions aren't working!

If it is for the whole driveway:

Metal barn: 1/4 of 100m = 25m

25/200 = 0.125 = 12.5%

*

Brick barn: 1/3 of 33.3m + 1/4 of 100m = 36.1m

36.1/200 = 0.1805 = 18%

*

Your semi: 1/2 of 33.3m + 1/3 of 33.3m + 1/4 of 100m = 52.75m

52.75/200 = 0.264 = 26%

*

Other semi: 33.3m + 1/2 of 33.3m + 1/3 of 33.3m + 1/4 of 100m = 86.05m

86.05/200 = 0.43 = 43%

*

Brick and metal is responsible for 31% (just less than a 1/3)

You are responsible for 26% (your 1/4 payment, or course, remains about the same)

Other is responsible for 43% (just less than 1/2)

This might mean you will need other or barns guy to agree with your wishes to make a majority, I don't know.

If it is to second boundary:

Metal barn: 1/4 of 100m = 25

25/133.3 = 0.19

*

Brick barn, you semi, other semi: 1/3 of 33.3m + 1/4 of 100m = 36.1m

36.1/133.3 = 0.27

Each

*

Metal 0.19
Brick 0.27
Your 0.27
Other 0.27

Brick and metal is responsible for 46%

You are responsible for 27%

Other is responsible for 27%

If it is to first boundary:

Brick and metal is responsible for 50%

You are responsible for 25%

Other is responsible for 25%

I just wonder if he has got confused. Maybe his 'solicitor' has told him, correctly, that he is now responsible for a 1/3 of the drive.

Then he assumes that it is a 1/3 each instead of 31:26:43 (13+28:26:43)

He sounds twatty regardless but there is nothing worse than getting the math wrong when a twat is involved!

(Frantically checks figures and looks around for tears!)

Twats not tears.

It is us who have the majority - your figures are correct except you need to swap 'other semi' and 'our semi' responsibilities around (it's confusing but that's because our field is at the very end of the track so we own that bit completely).

He hasn't spoken to a solicitor about the 1/4 1/3 situation, he's just assumed. The people in the other semi seem to think this is perfectly ok when we've spoken to them about it, despite what the deeds say.

It's the fact that he's trying to bully us into doing what he wants, without our agreement. He arranged for the bloke to come and work and ordered £300 of stone to be delivered, without our sayso and expects us to just pay up. He got really quite aggressive with DH about it yesterday.

Oh, and we are very aware of what our deeds and the other semi deeds say because we looked at buying both (one or the other) when they came onto the market as derelict cottages. The person who was selling them bought all three properties (semis and brick barn) so it was him who drew up the original track plans with his solicitors when the houses were put back onto the market.

Oh it's such a mess when it becomes acrimonious. He sounds like a right wanker regardless of the rights and wrongs. But whatever way it is sliced, with him owning so much responsibility now he only needs agreement from you or your neighbour to tip it over 50% If the 'vote'.

Can you please answer this.
Is the £180 1/3 of the bill to pay for stone and labour to fix:
A) the whole driveway,
B) drive from main road to 1st boundary
C) drive from main road to 2nd boundary
D) drive from main road to 3rd boundary

of not if

I think its best to just leave it all for now while people are upset. If he asks again for the money just say that you didnt agree to the work being done so wont pay. If he says hes taking legal advice say good! If the harassment continues seek legal advice. It sounds like such a shit situation.

He wants £130 from us and £130 from the other semi. The total cost was £390. £300 for the stone and £90 for the labourers day rate. DH spent two hours labouring out there himself anyway (labourer was only there for 3 hours). This was to cover the first portion of track (which is split into 4/4) and the part in front of his brick barn that runs up to the boundary between him and us (the part that's split into 3/3).

He's a latecomer asserting his little muscles and its working, you are all pandering to.him.He is the newcomer!

You should work out a solution that gets the road done, not necessarily push for one that is mathematically fairest, but blocks the completion of the road.

I would at least get plumber twat to boast about how much he earns before sayimg 'well the biggest push for this is you, you can clearly afford to.book works without thinkining and are tme most concerned..shall we say you pay half? amd then play watch the mad person for a bit..

Scary, the other side are pandering to him, we're not. Hence why he got so aggressive with DH yesterday. It's just so horrible. We moved here for some peace and tranquility and he's just ruining it. Hopefully they'll finish doing up their barn properly and then sell it on - it seems to be what they do a lot of.

He has made it so complicated by being such an arse.

If he comes at you again I would simply ask a copy of the invoice. You would want that for your accounts anyway, it is a totally reasonable request.

Regardless of all the ins and outs, and rights or wrongs, he is unreasonable to ask for £130 from you without any paperwork.

After that I've got nothing.

But I'd be making sure whatever cowboy mate he has doing the 'work' is giving his share to HMRC, and that it is not simply a mutually beneficial cash-in-hander for a mate.

I think I'd be tempted to send him a cheque for £65.50 with this break down.

Stone £300
3 hours labour (mate) £90
2 hours labour (DH) £60

Total: £450

Barns
£207

Other semi
£125.50 (27%)

Your semi
£125.50 (27%) - £60 (DH labour)
= £65.50 by cheque no: __

I'd also state that any further proposals for work must be agreed in writing prior to work commencing. When he cashes the cheque he acknowledges that he received this request.

sorry i meant you as in all the existings..and oandering as in he is now dictating the game, the negotiation point and the push for work, where gentle maintenance was the norm previously. .ie the only thing on the table now is expensive work that he has caused to.push for.

its useful to wind back the conversation from arguing over.solutions to what the problems were. .which were..as i understand it, that potholes were a bit of a nuisance eventually.

He booked work without any agreement, so he is liable to pay for that work..or more accurately he could be forced to pay compemsation for doing work withput permission and be forced to.make good and as was. that is a more true negotiation position. He is acting on a guess as to.hiw things are organised rather than hiw things are organised. he got it wrong. This needs to be pointed out.

I expect he is trying to get a driveway for his property part paid by everyone else, so his property value increases, however a concrete road might solve all these issues at relatively low cost.

As he seems to be the main beneficiary for early works, why dont you agree and formalise terms on a roadway maintainance account, with small monthly payments based on ten year maintainance work?

I suspect his mate was the guy getting paid and so there's also an issue there that you dont know the details.

Form alliance with neighbours and point out all of this, say it cost you virtually nothing under previous and now its say £300 every ten years each.

There might be legal implications/obligations of making a track a road?

Also perhaos ask council re adopting it and making it a road?