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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think the rape laws in the UK are sexist and should be changed?

316 replies

StuartAteMyStrawberries · 07/02/2017 23:43

Only men can be charged with rape in the UK. Women can be charged with sexual assault but not rape.

AIBU to think this is outrageous and that anyone who has sex with another person is a rapist and should be charged as such?

It was legal for a man to rape his wife up until the 1990's and the law was rightly changed to make it a criminal offense. AIBU to think we should change the definition of rape so that women can be charged with it too?

OP posts:
DuchessOMalley · 08/02/2017 02:07

Chocolatefuzz I was thinking about that thread and found the legal definition that someone shared on it quite useful :-

*Sexual assault is a much broader term. The law defines rape very specifically. From the Sexual Offences Act 2003:

"1 Rape
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person
(B) with his penis,
(b) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c) A does not reasonably believe that B consents."

"2 Assault by penetration
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person (B)
with a part of his body or anything else,
(b) the penetration is sexual,
(c) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(d) A does not reasonably believe that B consents"

"3 Sexual assault
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he intentionally touches another person (B),
(b) the touching is sexual,
(c) B does not consent to the touching, and
(d) A does not reasonably believe that B consents"*

So maybe a solution would be to give 'assault by penetration' a name that's taken as seriously as rape..?

worridmum · 08/02/2017 02:12

no I dont want to remove rape form the legislation i just want NON-CONSENTED SEX to = RAPE not the convulated situation we have now that anyone not penertrated by a penis is considered to be sexaully assulted with a object?

If both are equaly serious why do we need differing terms which like the Austrialian example can actully minimze the crime as like I have said numerous times sexaul assult covers SOOOOOO much

inapproate kissing / touch is no were near as serious as forced sexual intercourse but at the moment unless you are female with a male peportator your serious sexual crime is given the same title as someone getting grouped in a bar..........

venusinscorpio · 08/02/2017 02:14

I have been raped, and I didn't report. I think I probably made the correct decision under the circumstances. I watched a programme the other day about a young woman who had been abducted at knifepoint, taken to a caravan and repeatedly raped and abused for over 24 hours. They eventually caught him, it went to trial and he was convicted on all counts. It was an open and shut case. A perfect stranger abduction with violence case even a misogynist couldn't quibble with.

He got 7 years. He appealed against the sentence as he felt it was too long, and it was reduced to 5. Which essentially means 2 and a half years in prison. The victim was obviously devastated and terrified what will happen when he is released as she thinks he will want revenge.

FloraFox · 08/02/2017 02:14

They did the same thing in Canada and many believe it has led to the minimisation of all penetrative assaults by failing to distinguish them from non-penetrative asssults. Also it obscures the number of rapes carried out by men. When a serial rapist is being reported the reporting has to state that a man has been committing sexual assault which is not helpful for women in understanding the threat he poses.

I don't see that lumping all sexual offences together benefits any victim.

FloraFox · 08/02/2017 02:17

some people on the thread dont appear to understand why the defination needs to be changed.

I understand your point but I don't agree. I'm sure others are the same.

worridmum · 08/02/2017 02:17

why cannot this be the defination of Rape

"2 Assault by penetration
(1) A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a) he/ SHEintentionally penetrates the vagina or anus of another person (B)
with a part of his/HER body or anything else,
(b) the penetration is sexual,
(c) B does not consent to the penetration, and
(d) A does not reasonably believe that B consents"
(e) TAKE PART IN NON CONCENTED SEXAUL INTERCOURSE (i am bad at wording this bit)

Why is there a need for Rape and Assualt with penetartion?

worridmum · 08/02/2017 02:22

why currently cannot a Female peodfile or a lesibian offendered be classed as a Rapist ?

how does these being branded as rapist detract from the danger they pose?

My preference would be for Rape to be non consetaul sex not just rebranded to sexaul assult?

Why shouldnt a lesbian offendered be a rapist why does a rapist have to be male? and female simply a sex offender?

How again does adding lesbians and or females to the defination of rape cause problems for victims?

DJBaggySmalls · 08/02/2017 02:23

The rape laws are not sexist. They dont need to be changed. Rape is rape.

Stop minimising terms such as 'sex offender'.

worridmum · 08/02/2017 02:26

But people have highlighted the problem with the different defination by having the status quo currently there is not 1 single female rapist in the Unitied Kingdom

But there are plently of female sex offendered that just because they were born with a varginia are not conisdered to be the worst of the worst simply down to the fact their gender does not include a penis.

I am not calling for the removal of the term Rape just for it to be widened from simply pentration with PENIS

SuperBeagle · 08/02/2017 02:28

Flora

They are distinguished when you get into defining the actual offence in question. They are not distinguished prima facie. They are all considered sexual offences.

Why is a serial rapist more threatening than a serial sex offender? It isn't, and shouldn't be treated as such. Both are a threat.

Again, I work in the field, and I think this has been a good change to our sexual offences legislation. It has streamlined the process for everyone involved. It does not mean that the definition of rape does not still apply; but the word "rape" no longer features anywhere in our legislation, in the same way that a differentiating term does not exist for any other sexual offence, but the definitions still do.

LoupGarou · 08/02/2017 02:28

Venus Flowers.

Its disgusting how short the sentences are, and how easily they can be reduced, and as you say how victims have to live in fear of revenge.

DJBaggySmalls · 08/02/2017 02:30

FloraFox answered you point but you've chosen to ignore her post.

They did the same thing in Canada and many believe it has led to the minimisation of all penetrative assaults by failing to distinguish them from non-penetrative assaults. Also it obscures the number of rapes carried out by men.

Thats a serious problem at the moment. The statistics are being obscured in various ways.

worridmum · 08/02/2017 02:31

DJBaggy saying Rape is Rape as it currently stands my friend was not raped because her peportator is female

Her perportator is not a RAPIST but just a sex offender which covers again people who could simply unwanted kissing / phyiscal touching.

But why does the term RAPE need to have penis in its defination so only crimes involving a penis can be classed as Rape ?

Why is not using a dildo considered equally as bad? but branded with a title that covers considerly less worse crimes in it?

I am not minimising terms

venusinscorpio · 08/02/2017 02:32

Totally, Loup. I can just imagine some judges sitting around and thinking about all the graphic details of that poor young woman's terrifying ordeal and deciding that it didn't merit her rapist having a sentence of 7 years, and reducing it to 5.

SuperBeagle · 08/02/2017 02:33

But you'd still have obscured statistics with the law as it currently is... as not all penetrative assaults are considered rape. So are you happy for it to stay that way? I'm not seeing that as a valid argument, especially as I've not seen any research that suggests that's become a bigger issue where I am than it was before.

worridmum · 08/02/2017 02:35

I am sorry everyone I dont mean to upset people bringing this up I will stop now as I actully dont want to upset victims or be considered minimzing these horridous crimes I just wanted to highlight that currently our laws are convulauted currently and while praticalur treated the same in courts are not treated the same by the public.

DJBaggySmalls · 08/02/2017 02:39

Rape is penetration with a penis. I dont know why you have a problem with that. It is a specific crime.
It potentially includes the risk of pregnancy, and an STD, including HIV. In countries where abortion is illegal or difficult to obtain, or in cases where the victim is anti abortion, yes thats an additional problem.

No one else is minimising penetrative or serious sexual assault. If you want it to have a new name or classification, fight for that.

worridmum · 08/02/2017 02:39

couldnt the statics currently be divided by gender aka record as male rapist / female rapist ?

like 25 male were convicted of rape in march 2020 1 female was convicted of rape in same month etc

rather then 15 people were convicted of rape and 11 of assualt with pentration in march 2020 ?

FloraFox · 08/02/2017 02:41

It is important to clearly understand the extent of male rape. This is a key part of women's oppression by men. Rape and fear of rape affects all women.

Beagle how do you judge "it works here"? Are women not predominantly the victims of rape in Australia? Are men not predominantly the rapists? Do women not fear being alone in secluded places or curtail their behaviour in society to avoid being raped by men? Are women equally concerned about sexual assault by other women than they are by men? I suspect my idea of "it works" is not the same as yours.

DJBaggySmalls · 08/02/2017 02:42

Theres a pressure group that would object to that. I'm not getting into that debate. You are playing into their hands.

Stop minimising sexual assault. Then the problem is solved.

LoupGarou · 08/02/2017 02:42

Yes Venus I cannot understand a judge listening to it all, and then the rapist feels like the sentence is too long and the judges actually agrees?!?

LoupGarou · 08/02/2017 02:45

worrid I didn't think you were minimising, what happened to your friend is horrendous Flowers

venusinscorpio · 08/02/2017 02:51

The poor victim and her family were angry and upset at only seven years for an abduction and multiple rapes and assaults, so it was an extra kick in the teeth for that then to be reduced still further on appeal.

LoupGarou · 08/02/2017 02:54

Its completely crap. I do think rape and sexual assault need to carry much heavier sentences, its horrific how a victim can go through it, then have the trauma of court only to live in fear of becoming a victim once again in a few years time. Sad

RonaldMcDonald · 08/02/2017 02:55

I work fairly often with male victims of CSA and adult victims of dv.

We are still fighting against the physiological response of the penis becoming hard when stimulated.
That stimulation can be utterly against every single fibre of the child, youth or man's body.
This physical reaction has confused law makers, the public and most importantly survivors with some slur around - 'well you must have been willing, wanted it ' on some level etc etc
It tortures male survivors.

IMO Unwanted sex should be rape. Unwanted penetration should be rape.
The action of rape only being made by a penis muddys the waters.

I wanted to thank you for all your opinions, they have been really helpful even when clouded by anger and pain. I also wanted to send respect and love to those who shared their stories of unwanted sexual contact whether termed rape or not. I'm so sorry you went through it.
I hate that we diminish by labelling crimes as lesser, obviously I understand but it is so devastating for the victim.