To remind people it is Holocaust Memorial Day

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We should remember and teach our children to remember.

On holocusst denial. I knew a lovely Palestinian guy who would calmly tell me how it never actually happened the way it is reported. He truly believed what he was saying. I understand he was coming froma deeply conflicted place - but some folk do believe it never happened as we acknowledge it.

We have always discussed the Holocaust with our primary aged DSs.

Two of their grandparents are survivors. All their extended family were murdered.

So the DSs are very aware that while they have a huge family on my side, there is only their grandfather still alive on their Dads side. And they know the reason why.

Strongmummy, I knew about the massacres in Armenia from a play 'I wish to die singing'- have you seen it? Theatre, books, films are so important at raising consciousness.

It is terrible when massacres are denied, so I'm sure you can appreciate how it feels when the holocaust is denied, minimised or even justified.

We know the message of the holocaust is not getting through but fuck me - it's not the 6 millions fault and it's not our fucking fault. We will continue to honour the murdered even/especially if others would rather we didn't.

for those of us whose families died and who have survivors and children of survivors in their family, it isn't an abstract chance to say ooh look let's talk about genoicide

Yes, I completely agree. I tried to word my post in a way that reflected that but obviously didn't do very well. I was talking broadly about society rather than individuals and families.

Surely such horrendous events can't happen again -can they?

I think this question vindicates my suggestion that as a society there is a risk of complacency, of thinking that we have learned our lessons and won't repeat our mistakes. It indicates that we aren't aware of the things that have happened since. These things are relevant to this discussion because I think we are allowing ourselves to believe that we defeated this evil once and for all in 1945.

At 17, my FIL was sent to a labour camp with number of his school friend.

4 months later they were liberated by the Russians. FIL tells the story of how he and his school friends made their way from the camp back home.

@birdybirdywoofwoof @PigletWasPoohsFriend

2015...
Cameron went to the Caribbean ( Jamaica) to deliver a "gift"... That gift was a prison...to be built on the island. It is to allow Jamaicans in British prisons to finish their sentences on the island. UK Government is funding 40% of it. It is meant to save the UK tax payer. I have no issues with this.

While he was there, there were calls for discussing slavery reparations and an apology from the UK for the atrocities of slavery. David Cameron said

"slavery is the past and we should all move on" again paraphrasing

A week later he was remembering the holocaust.

Hence my post, hope that clarifies.

These are real stories about people we know and love. And we will remember them.

A year or two ago there was a beautiful Hugo Rifkind article about remembering the Holocaust here. The final paragraph has always stayed with me: "To remember is to remain aware that we, as humans, balance on the very lip of the unspeakable; always far closer to toppling than we might wish to admit."

Mm What you say might be true but to the wrong audience slarti.

All of us who grew up in the shadow of the holocaust know only too well how precarious things are...how easy it is for civilisation to slide. That's one of the many reasons why we must remember.

The first genocide of the 20th century was the Armenian genocide. In fact it gave hitler his idea for eradicating the disabled, gypsies and Jews. Unfortunately it's never mentioned on this day. In fact the eradication of the disabled and gypsies are never mentioned either. I think you are quite, quite wrong. Have you ever visited Anne Frank House? Or the Anne Frank Foundation exhibition? It was Holocaust Memorial Day that actually taught me about the Armenian genocide and about the slaughter of other minorities in Nazi camps.

Of course it is important that Holocaust Memorial Day works to make 'never again' active and meaningful, not an empty slogan. This doesn't always happen, but often it does (I have many times seen Holocaust survivors speak out against racism and Islamophobia; I did some work with Freedom Against Torture a few years back when I found that the vast majority of their volunteers who work with refugee children are Jewish women who want to 'give something back' in honour of their own family histories).

This isn't served well by whataboutery and veiled anti-Semitism, though. I don't accept the logic that Holocaust Memorial Day prevents us from commemorating other genocides. And I'm incandescent at the dismissal of the Holocaust as a 'pogrom' - 70% of European Jewry murdered, rising to 90% in some countries, the complete wiping out of European culture in Europe - you don't think this deserves marking?

I have living family who survived Nazi Germany. My family was decimated by the Holocaust - not just by direct murder, but by the dislocation, separation and trauma that is still being felt down the generations. It doesn't feel like ancient history to me. Every year, I have to endure smart aleck sneering from people who have never experienced anything like this, thinking that they are oh so clever and politically pure. Some of the posters on this thread need to take a good look within.

Oh, and my dp is the descendant of Caribbean slaves. I am very aware of the politics of remembrance, and how it can be distorted and exploited by politicians and others. For me, that isn't a reason to stand back and sneer - it's a reason to step right in, claim it and insist on keeping it ours. I know that I would be angry about the treatment of refugees even if my family hadn't been refused asylum in 1939 - but that heritage certainly adds an emotional charge to my political activism.

I don't accept the logic that Holocaust Memorial Day prevents us from commemorating other genocides.

Has anyone actually made that argument?

I will especially be remembering the Armenian genocide of 1915, in which members of my family where brutally massacred by the Turks, who still deny that they were responsible. Holocaust Memorial Day is about remembering all autrocities past and present!

Well said @DorcasrgePuffin

And I am so very sorry for what your family endured.

For what our families endured.

Well, the UK and the USA seems to want to turn its back on the world if it's not on our national interests.

That is such a depressing attitude to take.

Like others,I've seen what hate can do. I've been to Auschwitz and seen the gas chambers The rooms full of suitcases, hair, toys etc.
Been to Prague and seen the names on the wall and the pictures.
Been to Thailand and seen the Japanese POW museum.
Stood on the D Day beaches and wondered what it was like to be there.

When I was 9, I lived in Cyprus just a few years after the Turkish invasion. I vividly remember a Greek policeman showing us a mortar round that had come through a wall and killed a child my age just a few years before - that was on a school trip.

I was going to go to Rwanda in the 90s but the massacre stopped me going. I was naive back then.

We've had Srebenica.

So so so much shit goes on in this world. There must be MNers who have lived through it and those who have escaped it.

We still see it on our screens.

But we haven't learnt. Maybe we can't learn and our doomed to repeat our mistakes and to let hate dominate. It's happening now.

This world could be a great place. It really could. I know that sounds like student talk late at night - but it could be.

I think every world leader should see the reality of their actions and what happens if we do nothing.

I am very aware of the politics of remembrance, and how it can be distorted and exploited by politicians and others. For me, that isn't a reason to stand back and sneer - it's a reason to step right in, claim it and insist on keeping it ours.

@DorcasthePuffin

Very much agree with what you have said.

But I must ask... how can we claim it and keep it in the conscience of modern day humans? when even dialogue is not allowed. As soon as someone asks what about the "others" it is quickly dismissed.

If a prime minister from a former slave owning country... and who's family also owned slaves can be so dismissive... what hope it there?

...and yes I know he doesn't represent the entirety of views.

Dorcas, yes you are right. The first genocide of the 20th century was the murder of the Heroro people by the Germans.....they're not remembered either. I agreed with TaylorMade as she made an important point about race. I understood her comment to mean that genocides featuring black people are often totally ignored.

I don't accept the logic that Holocaust Memorial Day prevents us from commemorating other genocides

Completely agree...And people who object to it don't really give a shit about other genocides do they?

I knew nothing about the Armenian genocide - will read more about it.

how can we claim it and keep it in the conscience of modern day humans? when even dialogue is not allowed. As soon as someone asks what about the "others" it is quickly dismissed.

See, I just don't accept that it is dismissed. Look at these links I found with just a two minute google:

www.annefrank.org/en/Education/Monitor-Homepage/Research/Muslim-discrimination-in-secondary-education/

hmd.org.uk/page/holocaust-genocides

hmd.org.uk/genocides/darfur/

I may be more immersed in this stuff than some posters but this is not news to me: I see LOADS of people using Holocaust memorial to honour other peoples subjected to genocide, and to warn about the dangers of othering, racism and xenophobia.

I suspect it all depends on how the issue is raised. If someone says to me, "what are the pros and cons of focusing on Holocaust rather than all genocides", or "What are the links between the Holocaust and the Armenian massacre", or "How can we use the lessons of the Holocaust to fight Islamophobia?" then I'll think we're up for a proper discussion. If, though, someone says, "Why should we mark the Holocaust, when there's been loads of other genocides that don't have the same clout?" I'll think they are mean-spirited at best, anti-Semitic at worst.

So, the positive thing to do is to read, support and promote resources like those I linked to above. We can all use whatever starting point we want to learn, and to reach out to others, and to speak out for those in the firing line of modern day racism.

As I said, my own family is German Jewish. My partner's family is black Caribbean. We have been talking for many years about about what those heritages mean, including the sensitive areas like the schmaltification of the Holocaust versus the stunning ignorance of most people about how Caribbean slavery and the sugar trade made this country, and also invented modern racism. They are really important discussions, but it takes some generosity of spirit to keep them constructive at times. I really hope one day we can have a thread like this on MN where everybody shows that generosity of spirit, and we all learn something.

Sorry to rant on, but bottom line here: the problem is not that the Holocaust hogs all the attention, or that Holocaust survivors are unwilling to share the limelight. The problem is that much of our Establishment doesn't give a flying toss about the death of poor, ethnic minority people. You could argue (oh go on then, I will) that it's easy to sentimentalise Jewish victims because there's so few European Jews left they are no longer considered any threat to the body politic.

I understand why this makes some people recoil from joining in, but the answer is not to abandon the memory of the largest industrial genocide we have ever seen. We have to fight for it.

Agree absolutely Dorcas and well done for saying it in such a calm and measured way (unlike me!)

Raising the question about "others" in a constructive manner is good, but it shouldn't be necessary.

The only reason it has more sentiment is simply to do with race... the holocaust affected more white people than it did black. It is a significant stain on modern day white history and not something they can sweep under a rug because there are still people alive today who managed to survive.. so they are forced to acknowledge it.

The holocaust is important... but when you deliberately exclude the others from the public knowledge it leads to the current feelings expressed by individuals.

The establishment doesn't care for the others because survivors are few or non- existent. Look at slavery once again..how can 300 years of atrocities be watered down to one month of "black history"... a history that is not even accurate. What does black history month actually mean? How many people even acknowledge it's existence... besides black people?

Yet we should ALL "remember the holocaust"... it is one sided.

I don't get the impression those willing to discuss other genocides are minimising the holocaust.

"Why should we mark the Holocaust, when there's been loads of other genocides that don't have the same clout?"

But nobody has said that Dorcas. This entire thread seems to be characterised by people arguing against things that haven't been said.

Personally I have tried to explain what I think are the "cons of focusing on Holocaust rather than all genocides" and feel I've been shouted down for it, along with having a few slurs and nasty insinuations thrown my way.