To stay in the school catchment of a Church school when we are athiests

[greenlinesrunsmooth]

Sorry if this is a long one but don't want to drip-feed, if you manage to get through it then

I am agnostic and DH athiest, neither of us can stand the idea of organised religion and cringe at the idea of DD being forced to worship in morning, say grace at lunch and pray before home-time which is what the SIAMS report says the school does. I know all schools do collective worship and have an element of prayar, but this seems to be more? Only problem is I love this area, we have been living here for years, I feel why should I be kicked out of an area I love because of the church. It actually really really pisses me off that people can be discriminated against based on this. The actual school in question has community places too, its 70/30, so we would have no problem getting in but I don't want DD to be taught in an overly religious environment.

The only other option is a community school that is in special measures and is really really rough. I walked past with DD in a pushchair and looked into the playground to see how the kids were playing and a parent collecting their child hollered 'paedo!!! paedo!!' at me. FFS, a mother with a pushchair harmlessly walking along, seriously warped. He also looked like he was on drugs as his eyes were rolling all over the place. And i have heard of police being called to the school to restrain parents who have tried to beat up teachers, in one case the parent was angry at a teacher for 'giving her child knits' and throttled her against a wall - this was related to hallucinations on drugs apparently. This is the norm at this school.

Going back to the church school, on the SIAMS report it said a boy came home and told his mum 'I worked hard today to make God happy', and another said 'I did X so that Jesus would love me'. My DH said he would feel sick if DC came home saying this, no disrespect to people who have faith but if you aren't religious then it's really hard to swallow

AIBU to think I can cringe and bare it? Will it get better with time? Should we move? I LOVE this town, love the friends I have made here. Don't want to leave!

Anyone been in this situation and can tell me how it worked out? Any good stories or equally if it really didn't work out it would be good to know, we can still move at the moment as DD is only 6 months...

As a disclaimer, I don't mean to cause offense to anyone who does have faith, so please don't take it that way. I know it is a highly personal matter and I have plenty of friends who do have faith who are lovely people, it's just not what we want for our child. If she chose to be religious in the future than fine but we don't want it forced on her at such a young age...

I'm gobsmacked at the number of people who think that you're being unreasonable, faced with these choices.

it's hardly the fault of the church that the community school is bad.

If you've read any of the reports on how the effect of having schools with a faith entry criterion can skew the social mix, you might not say that so glibly. Sure, doubtless the faith school prides itself on its 'ethos' - reality is, if it's oversubscribed and can select by criteria such as church attendence over a significant period (or even for RC, how soon the child was baptized) then it will inevitably be selecting for families who are more organised, and selecting against those who CBA about education or are just too chaotic - whether through fecklessness or being financially constrained to work multiple jobs etc.

You might find some useful info and advice from the Fair Admissions campaign and The Accord Coalition

This attitude annoys the hell out of me. Does it ever occur to these atheist parents that religious schools are better because they are religious?
Well, indirectly. They're better in many cases because they're essentially selective. They select for families who are organised enough to get to church regularly, and care about education enough to fill in supplementary application forms and send their child a bit further to school. There can also be an added sense of community from the church attached. It's not the religion per se. The local CofE near me wasn't a better school, so just ended up with local kids or kids from further away who couldn't get in anywhere else. No selection factor, school was and remained poor. All these middle class families were not so keen to jump through hoops for a religious education when it came with a requires improvement tag. That's what annoys the hell out of me. People don't want a religious education, they want a better education, and it's available on the state if you happen to be the right religion or are hypocritical enough to pretend to be. Or in OP's case if you allow them a shot at indoctrinating your child.

I don't think religion belongs in schools except in the RS sense.

I think you are overthinking the religious aspect of the better school. What are you afraid of? If you think anything religious is made up then there is nothing to fear because it doesn't exist.

DD used to go to Sunday school, had her first communion at 6 and was confirmed at 13. She is now 16 and atheist. She has thought things through and has decided for herself that religion is not for her. All the early exposure to organised religion has not indoctrinated her at all.

"But you want to take the religion part out because it doesn't suit you. Fuck the families who do believe and want their child in a religious school because its important to them".

Ah yes, the usual level of calm rationality and tolerance that we've come to expect from the religious.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the OP would like to send her child to a school that taught humanism, or was explicitly atheist? No such schools exist - no such schools are allowed to exist in the state sector. Why should the religious get all the privileges?

I think your anger is a little misplaced OP. In your position I'd be angry about the state of the community school.

A "challenging" intake doesn't automatically result in a school being in special measures. The school my DCs go to has many families with chaotic home lives and a much higher than average number of pupils with SEN, EAL, pupil premium etc. Children's ability and knowledge when starting reception is lower than average. And yet the school has consistently "good" or "outstanding" Ofsted reports. The head is amazing and the staff work really hard to give the more disadvantaged children the best possible chances. As a result local middle class parents are not intimidated and the school is gradually gaining popularity (especially as the other 2 local options are faith schools).

If you are determined to stay in the area, maybe it's worth finding out more about the community school. Possibly get to know someone on the PTA or board of governors? You don't have to have a child at the school to be a governor. Much could change in the next 4 years....

I agree it's wrong that we pay for religious schools (and who can be selective on that basis) without the option of supporting explicitly non-religious schools (that would obviously teach RE and have non religious assemblies etc) That would be fair.

Our catchment school is C of E. It's quite religious and dh and I are not. Because it's a catchment school you get dc of all religions/no religion there. You can opt out of worship/church if you want to.

I don't find it a problem at all really. Yes initially dd did come home talking about god, as though it were the truth. Over time she questioned it and formed her own opinions. My take was some people believe this, others believe that. And indeed I think the national curriculum these days ensures that they learn about all the different religions.

They have three church services a year where we go and sing hymns but it's voluntary for parents - some go, some don't. I'm not religious at all but I don't mind going and singing a few hymns.

But it's perfectly acceptable to go to your catchment school and if your dc is talking about religion just say - well some people believe that but me and daddy don't if it's that important to you. I found my dc just took our stance naturally really. At the end of the day, it's their choice. It's just extra information as far as I'm concerned. Something to learn about.

Personally, I think all schools should be secular ... Oh yeah, great. Just remove the choice for everyone else just because you want to pick between two 'acceptable' schools. How the Jeff is that fair for people who value their faith as much as you seemingly value your agnosticism? You sound far too invested in this to be able to call yourself agnostic imo.

I do think it's hypocritical. 'I don't want my child to go to a religious school, it's not fair I have to do this. But I want all schools to be secular so everybody is forced to go to the type of school I prefer.

Yep there does seem to be an element of that.

Remember that your baby is 6mo. Our catchment primary (non-religious) spent 6 years in and out of special measures. It's just got OFSTED 'good' and is outstanding in some areas. We moved here two years ago and chose the next closest school and got DD a place there as it was undersubscribed. Last year our catchment school got the good rating and it's now full.

Lots could happen to your local community school.

I'd also suggest moving now rather than before secondary. They make lots of friends, join clubs like Brownies etc so upping and moving away from everything will be tough. We moved when DD was in Year1 and it's worked well.

I appreciate all your responses, I guess I will never know if DD will be 'indoctrinated' or barely notice the religious side of the school until she's there but I don't want to regret our choice when we feel so strongly about it. Your comments about secondary school have also made me think perhaps we should move now, we always knew this area wasn't forever as the secondary school is absolutely awful - they are undersubscribed for 50% of places every year, in a London borough this is terrible considering the number of kids that live here. Also they've stopped going to A levels as there aren't enough students so they only take them to GCSE. We would probably be better off moving now to avoid all the hassle later. Now we've got to do some investigating for new areas!!

2 atheists here, DD attends an outstanding church school. She's in year 5 now and is a total chip off the old block. Advised her to nod and agree with any mention of God. It's gone well so far and she's had a fabulous education. I'm sure some will judge we but I turn up to Carol concerts, assemblies and make sure RE homework is in on time. Put your child's education first.

I do think it's hypocritical. 'I don't want my child to go to a religious school, it's not fair I have to do this. But I want all schools to be secular so everybody is forced to go to the type of school I prefer.

I don't think it's necessarily hypocritical. I think schools should be secular. However, should I really have to send my child to the one village in my local area which isn't a church school, rather than to the fantastic school in my village, less than two minutes walk from my front door, whete all the kids in the village go, just because that school happens to be a church school, because I'm an atheist?

If it's a state school then you should be allowed to send your children there whatever your own beliefs. If you think you will get in, and it's nearby, then you are free to do so, and also to pass your own values on to your children in your home time.

If you can't stomach that, well, the community school might be failing now, but things can change very quickly, especially if they are now in special measures. And having engaged parents like you send their children there is one of the things that will help them change.

You obviously abhor religion and don't want your dc to go to a school that practises religion. Nobody is forcing you to send your child there. Do the same as every other parents and make your own decisions based on what suits you

Im a catholic (not at all a practicing one) but i went to catholic school and honestly, even for a catholic, it was full on. We had to recite the lords prayer every morning, we had to pray in form every day and before we was let out for lunch. I know every religion is different but i guess they are all strict like my school was but in their own way to suit their religion? My best friend went to a church of england school and it was exactly the same for her, but we were taught catholic views and she was taught the c of e views. I want to get my son baptized but i wouldnt send him to a religious school because i think its so full on for anyone, unless you really want your kids to be true and practicing of a faith i wouldnt send them to a religious school. I think non religious schools can educate children just as well if not better x

Just popping in to point out that secular doesn't mean atheist.

Personally I'm on the other side of the fence from OP as lack of funds to afford private school here in the US means my children will likely have to go to state schools which will be secular as all state-run schools are here. Sadly they won't be able to be educated in a Christian environment but there's plenty we can do outside school.

Your child will not long-term be Christian or non-Christian or Muslim or anything else simply because of schooling. After all, God gave us free will! /s

Where does this idea that State schools should provide parents with a source of religious indoctrination for their children come from? People who say state schools should be secular aren't suggesting State schools should teach children to be atheists or agnostics, just that faith is not a subject with an agreed upon curriculum in any sense and having schools linked to a particular faith will, of necessity exclude the majority of the public. Logistically it's a nightmare to have schools aimed at many different subsets rather than inclusive ones aimed at all - and that shows up every year in admissions issues like these.

And the uptake in church attendance to get into oversubscribed church schools, compared with the meager attendance when it isn't effectively a cost of entry (not to mention the way parents who do put outstanding church schools top of their list, will generally put an outstanding community school next above a church school that's only adequate) would seem to indicate that the majority of parents are not really there for the faith. So the huge provision of church schools, even if it were deemed a reasonable thing for the state to provide, is way out of proportion with demand for a truely religious education.

Well put boomboom. Very much agree with that.

busyrascal

Your response to the proposition that all state schools should be secular was:

Oh yeah, great. Just remove the choice for everyone else just because you want to pick between two 'acceptable' schools. How the Jeff is that fair for people who value their faith as much as you seemingly value your Agnosticism

I don't understand why religious people feel the need for religion to be taught and promoted in schools. Religions have their own institutions and people responsible for their teaching and advancement and religious families constantly promote the religion in the home. Provided that the school does not insist that the child do anything that offends against his or her religion (e.g. making a Muslim girl remove a hijab, like they do in France, or not serving appropriate food) I don't see why religion has to play any part in education. Don't kids have enough to deal with already, learning all the academic stuff? Also, if kids from different religions are all educated together in an environment where religion is not discussed unless relevant to an academic subject like history, English or RE, does that not equip children better to make their way in wider society?

I feel that if a family is religious then it's up to them to arrange for religion to be taught, and it's lazy to delegate it all to the child's school. That they feel the need for the school to reinforce the religious education gained outside school smacks of a lack of security in their own beliefs.

OP, visit the chuffing schools properly and see for yourself. Everything you know about the church school is based on gossip.

And please could those posters who are not religious kindly refrain from phrases like 'spouting a lot of nonsense about God'?

Yippie I was the one that used the phrase "religious nonsense" and it was religious nonsense - from a theological perspective as well as an atheistic one. For instance, "We can't eat fish, because Jesus was a fisherman." and "Women are badder than men because Eve ate the apple first" (though I appreciate that is religious nonsense that has been perpetuated for millennia).

I also mentioned that they come out with absolute corkers about all sorts of things while they're at school. Some of the science was pretty ropey too.

My dd is applying for secondary school at the moment. I am glad we have a good one in the area and we are in catchment because she'll know 60 people from primary school on starting. Her friends are important to her now she's this age. We did briefly think we should move away, for financial reasons, and it caused a huge amount of upset for her. So I think it is wise to plan ahead for the long-term myself. It makes life a lot a easier.

Yy - going to a non-religious school doesn't in any way stop people from practising their faith. Should we also have separate libraries, hospitals and supermarkets for religious people? The state should give your child an education. Why does it also need to provide training in the religion of your choice, thereby creating unnecessary divisions in schooling? Surely your church is sufficient for providing that?

You are not unreasonable. If a school is taking any form of state funding, I think it's completely unethical for them to refuse any child on religious grounds.