To stay in the school catchment of a Church school when we are athiests

[greenlinesrunsmooth]

Sorry if this is a long one but don't want to drip-feed, if you manage to get through it then

I am agnostic and DH athiest, neither of us can stand the idea of organised religion and cringe at the idea of DD being forced to worship in morning, say grace at lunch and pray before home-time which is what the SIAMS report says the school does. I know all schools do collective worship and have an element of prayar, but this seems to be more? Only problem is I love this area, we have been living here for years, I feel why should I be kicked out of an area I love because of the church. It actually really really pisses me off that people can be discriminated against based on this. The actual school in question has community places too, its 70/30, so we would have no problem getting in but I don't want DD to be taught in an overly religious environment.

The only other option is a community school that is in special measures and is really really rough. I walked past with DD in a pushchair and looked into the playground to see how the kids were playing and a parent collecting their child hollered 'paedo!!! paedo!!' at me. FFS, a mother with a pushchair harmlessly walking along, seriously warped. He also looked like he was on drugs as his eyes were rolling all over the place. And i have heard of police being called to the school to restrain parents who have tried to beat up teachers, in one case the parent was angry at a teacher for 'giving her child knits' and throttled her against a wall - this was related to hallucinations on drugs apparently. This is the norm at this school.

Going back to the church school, on the SIAMS report it said a boy came home and told his mum 'I worked hard today to make God happy', and another said 'I did X so that Jesus would love me'. My DH said he would feel sick if DC came home saying this, no disrespect to people who have faith but if you aren't religious then it's really hard to swallow

AIBU to think I can cringe and bare it? Will it get better with time? Should we move? I LOVE this town, love the friends I have made here. Don't want to leave!

Anyone been in this situation and can tell me how it worked out? Any good stories or equally if it really didn't work out it would be good to know, we can still move at the moment as DD is only 6 months...

As a disclaimer, I don't mean to cause offense to anyone who does have faith, so please don't take it that way. I know it is a highly personal matter and I have plenty of friends who do have faith who are lovely people, it's just not what we want for our child. If she chose to be religious in the future than fine but we don't want it forced on her at such a young age...

Op.. I know when I had my DS. I did know it was fine for me and DH but not an area I wanted my DS to grow up in. I moved ..

The reality is the area may of been perfect for you and DP...However now you do have a child the schools , area do become more relevant.. The school is clearly doing well which is why people do 6 months of church attendance.. However there is no point objecting to the way the school runs. If you do not want to send your Child to a local school yes you have to consider moving..Not necessarily when baby is 6 months as Schools can change a lot in a few years no wonder what you believe.

piece one sink community in catchment, not three

I'm very much an atheist. We live in a rural area and our village primary and almost all the local primaries are CofE. I love our village school and the churchy side of things is not pushed much really. I'd much rather the school was secular (so would the Head, I suspect), but had no worries about the school having any religious influence on my already atheist children (they started there aged 6 and 9).

I really don't like the fact that there are church schools, but there's no way I'd have deprived my dc of the benefits of going to their lovely village school just because they say prayers.

Secondary is a bit different. I don't think it's ok to pretend to be a Catholic in order to go to the school of your choice, but I can see why people do it out of desperation if the alternative is really bad.

do eventually plan to move out of London for secondary but wanted to be near friends/family for primary

Much easier to move now while you have a baby. In order to get a good secondary school you will need to be living somewhere the year before. It gets harder and harder to move as the child wants to be near their friends and whilst there is a break between yr6 and 7 in terms of friendships you might have other dc by then too.

Be aware that all schools have some form of religious worship. The interpretation is largely up to the Headteacher. A community school with an evangelical head might seem far more religious than a CofE with an agnostic Head who does enough to tick the diocesan boxes - we were shown round by one who told us she only put 'that cross' up because they were due a visit from the diocese. The Head can move too and a new Head might have a different slant.

Being put into special measures could actually be a good thing for the community school - a couple of local schools have been through the same here and made huge improvements as a result. There's plenty of time for you to make a decision on that one based on what happens from now on.
As for the church school, it sounds rather ott but many of the people I know who went there are now a mix of Christian/agnostic or atheist, I suspect that being in a religious school can concentrate your mind on whether you believe or not!
YABU to be stressing about this now - wait and see what happens to the community school.

OP I would make 2 points

First you are lucky that you have any form of choice whatsoever. Church schools dominate in my small area of London and you would be lucky to get in without the required amount of church attendance.

Second I don't think you have a grip on what is normal in Anglican worship. You cite this stuff about crumbs - this is the prayer of humble access which is frequently used in the Anglican Church prior to communion. It isn't about making people feel inferior.

"We do not presume to come to your table, merciful Lord,trusting in our own goodness, but in your all-embracing love and mercy. We are not worthy even to gather up the crumbs under your table, but it is your nature always to have mercy. So feed us with the body and blood of Jesus Christ, your Son, that we may forever live in him and he in us. Amen."

I was an atheist child of atheist parents at a catholic school. I started going there aged 8 in year 3 as my mother had cancer and could no longer manage the long travel times to my old school and this new one was at the bottom of the road so I was able to take myself.

During prayers I would stand up and sometimes mumble along, sometimes stay silent, I was never told off for not doing it. During mass (usually only once a term) I would just zone out and daydream. I'd join in the weekly hymn practices bit that was because singing was fun.

I never really felt I was overly preached too, and I was able to easily ignore all the religious aspects of the school without missing out. No one ever tried to convert me either. I ended up going to a catholic secondary school as well and it was much the same there.

I wouldn't worry too much, as long as you are able to speak frankly with your children and help them understand that they need to respect that other people do believe things, but they can just stay quiet and ignore it it will be fine.

TheClacks I think that was it, it rings bells, it made me feel very very uncomfortable. I don't understand why we 'are we not worthy' to 'gather up crumbs'? And the stuff on we feed on 'the body and blood' of Jesus is warped to me. I mean just the idea of it. I know these things are supposed to be symbolic, but how do I explain that to a child, if DD is at all a thinker, I'm sure she would be scared by this kind of talk, I really don't meant to offend anyone but as a non-religious person and having had no religious teachings throughout my life I found this kind of talk really, really odd. I think this conversation has made me realise I can't deal with it, I mean I'd be scared the whole time they would tell DD stuff like that - I know they take the kids for holy communion to the church.

So OP, your only school choices are between a school where the parents don't think the children pray enough and one where the parents are violent, drug addled insulters of new mothers?

How dreadful.
You should move.
How do you know that parents have been complaining that not enough prayers are being said?

You'll most likely find the majority of pupils at the school come from parents who do not actively worship or are atheists. Saying that if the school is run by the diocese, you may get people that have been baptised into the religion before you, so it's worth checking that out. Whilst I don't agree with baptisms for the sake of it, I'm being a bit of a hypocrit by saying I think education is different.

This attitude annoys the hell out of me. Does it ever occur to these atheist parents that religious schools are better because they are religious?

But you want to take the religion part out because it doesn't suit you. Fuck the families who do believe and want their child in a religious school because its important to them. No just get into the school under false pretences because you can afford sneaky renting in the catchment area.

So send your child somewhere else, noone is forcing you to do anything. Yabu.

Titanius Where have I said I want to get DC in under false pretences! There are community places and we are in catchment, but it's not a community school, it's a religious school, how is that fair to the 'community'? We have lived here for ten years, how have we rented in the catchment area?? The only true community school that does have a tight catchment where everyone rents we are not in the designated area for sadly, and that school is way more oversubscribed than the religious one or the sink school!

Second I don't think you have a grip on what is normal in Anglican worship. You cite this stuff about crumbs - this is the prayer of humble access which is frequently used in the Anglican Church prior to communion. It isn't about making people feel inferior.

This. Exactly.

OP - I think you should try to educate yourself a bit more (with facts, not gossip from a prayer group you are not part of ). Or move.

Don't worry OP, I'm sure you have another 6-9 months to source a new school, catchment area and house before your baby gets too old and you're too late.

I would put your property on the market immediately though. Do you have to disclose the awfulness of the nearby schools when you're selling?

Op most of my post was meant generally not specifically at you, because of previous posts about this topic.

YANBU to be concerned, but I think your child will be fine at the church school.

I'm an atheist and tried to bring my dd up as an atheist. Within a couple of weeks of starting (a non-religious state) school she decided to believe in God because of the assemblies.

About a year later she decided she'd like to be a Muslim. I think that's because we'd been to Iran on holiday and because my TA at the time was a Muslim (I teach at the same school).

But as she got older, she become more questioning.

When going to open evenings in Year 6, her favourite school was a C of E one in the next town. We decided that it should be her choice so applied for a place. We were completely honest. We applied for a community place and didn't pretend to be Christians on the application form.

DD is now in Year 9. The religious ethos of the school is very strong and many of her friends go to church. But she is now an atheist as are a number of other children. She feels quite confident to state her opinions at school, particularly in R.E. lessons.

I think that, as they get older, children are capable of making up their own minds about religion no matter what the school and home environments are.

btw some people have criticised you for thinking about schools when your dd is so young. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. As others have said, there is plenty of time for the community school to improve. But if you did decide to move, you wouldn't want to leave it until it was time to apply for school places. And those first few years to go very quickly.

It's ridiculous that in this day and age that publicly funded schools should be pushing religion. It should be matter for parents to deal with at home and through attendance at worship if they wish. I understand your difficulty, OP.

Your problem has nothing to do with the church school! You've made it clear that YOU don't share their beliefs so this school is not one of your options obviously!
THEY are not pushing you out of the community, there is a non- denomination school in the area your DC can attend.

Your problem lies with the non-denomination school. You DO share their beliefs regarding religion (no religion!). But, you don't like the school? You'll have to move then!
It isn't the fault of the religious school (I'm guessing Catholic) that the other school is rubbish.

I do think it's hypocritical. 'I don't want my child to go to a religious school, it's not fair I have to do this. But I want all schools to be secular so everybody is forced to go to the type of school I prefer.

And talking to one parent about Khan doesn't give you an accurate impression of the whole school.

And the thing about the crumbs is the prayer of humble access about humility, like, not expecting a whole school to change to suit you.

You live in an area where neither school is acceptable to you. The reason dont matter.

Moving for secondary is, imo, is a bad idea. Your child will have had friends at school for years. Removing them from all of them at 11 isn't easy for the child.

No primary is acceptable, so move. People do it all the time for loads of reasons. No good schools in the area, dont like the schools in the area, school not offering wrap around care etc.

Please bear in mind that the SIAMS report isn't necessarily entirely reflective of everyday life at the school. It's like OFSTED - you talk the talk and walk the walk for a couple of days and then you go back to normal. I'm not saying they won't be religious, I'm just saying that the report may make it look more religious than it really is.

OP, I'm very much an atheist and luckily had the choice to send DD to a good community primary school with no formal church affiliation. However she still came home spouting about God and Jesus and parentmail home would regularly promote the local church

I moved to a more rural area last year and every single school even vaguely in catchment is CofE so I moved her to the nearest school and I can honestly say there's about the same level of God as the previous school!

However, whilst I would say not to reject a CofE school out of hand based on my experience, the school you're describing sounds a different level of religious - parents prayer groups? Really? The school leadership sounds a bit more evangelical and I'd avoid. However don't expect no religion at a community school...
Good luck OP

Have seen parents prayer group at community schools too.

Just adding another voice of support OP.

Very sensible to be looking at the options now. If you do decide you need to move then the longer you have the better. In our case we have good primary but historically poor secondary. Can't afford to move yet and worried we've left it too late.

On the religious front - I work in lots of different schools and from what I have seen there is a huge range of 'religious-ness'. Some I'd be happy to send my kids to, some absolutely not (I am atheist) even though in many other ways they are lovely schools. Other poster's 'mild' church school experiences are not relevant - it's this school and it's fit with you that's important. I think you'd need to look at their prospectus, visit and talk to parents maybe to get a really good idea. But the information you have already doesn't sound very positive.

If you were thinking of moving anyway for secondary personally I'd just do it now. But if you did end up with Religious School, it might not be the end of the world! You can do a lot to balance things out.

And for what it's worth my just 4 yr old came home from nursery today saying our (deceased) cat was in heaven (non church school).

Depends how godly it is. I ran from a school i was viewing when the head showed me the hut the mum's meet in for quilting and bible reading. I'm atheist but schooled in catholic schools but would be ok with religious schools if they aren't OTT.