To question the Eat Well plate?

[TheGruffaloMother]

I know it can take an age to filter new evidence down into official advice but am really struggling to fathom why the Eat Well plate hasn't yet changed despite everything I keep seeing in the media suggesting we've known for a while now that eating such a high proportion of carbohydrate isn't necessarily healthy. Is high fat the way to go? High protein? Is the official advice wrong? Do the alternatives offer lasting ways to keep your weight under control?

Notagiraffe, I've been eating lower carb, Paleo for quite a few years now, and no issue with constipation! Even on a 50-70g a day total carbs, I eat plenty of leaves and low carb veg.

Low fat dairy and meat and diary is more healthy than high fat versions though and I think the Eat Well diet makes it clear that the carbohydrates should be non-processed and whole grain as much as possible.

I disagree. Low fat is not healthier than high fat.

Low sugar, yes.
low fat, no.

HoldTheBun - I bet it's possible to eat brilliantly on the low carb diet. It's also possible to eat brilliantly on the low fat diet withotu eating loads of processed rubbish. But I have seen so many women noshing away on processed meats and cheeses - packed with salts and preservatives - steering clear of fibre-rich fruit because of the sugar, but not bulking out the meats and cheeses with veg because they're not keen on them. They do lose weight, but I can't believe it's good for you to limit a diet so much.

I disagree. Low fat is not healthier than high fat.

I said low fat dairy and meat, not low fat full stop. The evidence is that those who eat a lot of high fat meat and diary will have a higher risk of heart disease than those who don't. If LDL cholesterol levels are reduced (through diet or drugs) the risk of heart disease decreases.

This is an interesting blog article for anyone wanting to start some reading into this topic (but plenty of emerging "proper science" papers out there too if you google), looking some of the metabolic impact of high carbohydrate diets.

drmarkporter.co.uk/low-carb-diet-my-6-week-experiment-to-see-how-cutting-back-on-carbs-impacted-on-my-blood-cholesterol-lipid-profile/

I posted some other interesting and sensible (in my view anyway!) websites for those interested in looking at a different approach to nutrition, here they are again tho (new year new user name).

Marksdailyapple blog, robbwolf.com, dietdoctor Lchf blog, and Phuk (Public Health Collaboration UK), which has now published its own healthy eating guidelines.

I don't think it is any surprise that cutting down on fruit juices, bread, cakes, biscuits and confectionery is a good idea. That doesn't mean that replacing other carbohydrates (e.g. potatoes and whole grain food) with high fat diary and meat will improve lipid profiles and lower cardiovascular disease risk.

The "evidence" that low fat dairy and meat reduce heart disease has been disproven. There was an assumption that these fats were creating the problems and the role of carbs was not considered. As so many others have pointed out, it is high intake of carbs and sugar, which is the enemy.

The "evidence" that low fat dairy and meat reduce heart disease has been disproven.

No it hasn't which is why it is still promoted by the NHS. If you eat less saturated fat, LDL cholesterol levels will reduce and that will reduce the risk of cardiovascular disease.

I'm sorry to be blunt but that advice is wrong.

Both the link between dietary saturated fat and blood cholesterol, also the simplistic differentiation between good/bad cholesterol, and finally the flawed assumotion that lower cholesterol levels are safer.

Mounting body of evidence that higher cholesterol leads to longevity and lower linked to morbidity.

Loads of links out there (real science not junk stuff) if you care to search for it. And yes. This is the polar opposite to what the BHF have been asserting for decades. Not all that surprising that there is some reticence to performing an embarrassingly public u turn.

"The cholesterol con" by Malcolm kendrick an accessible book that is well referenced.

HairyLittlePoet I appreciate that there are "loads of links" out there promoting high saturated fat diets. However, overall the evidence suggests that those with a lower saturated fat diet are likely to have lower LDL cholesterol levels and consequently a lower risk of heart disease. If you want to believe that the cardiologists, BHF and other experts are not up to date and haven't read the evidence and you know better then that is up to you.
I'm personally not going to change my diet and start eating high-fat meat and dairy because I have low LDL cholesterol levels, HbA1c levels, BMI and always have.

Fish farmed salmon is the most toxic food to eat. As are all large fish farmed oily fish, such as tuna. Even if it says organic. Do not eat any fish that originates from the Baltic. It's basically an inland sea that is the most toxic in the world. It takes 30 years to replenish the waters.

Giraffe, yes you are right about that point, far too many people (low carb or not) shy away from lower sugar/carb veg, and leafy greens. The 5 (or7) a day should ideally be mostly leafy greens and colourful veg, not fruit (nothing wrong with whole fruits and berries in moderation of course).

A decade ago I would have been one of those people, but to the salad dodgers out there, I'd say actually it's quite easy to retrain the taste buds by eating more salad leaves and veg that you don't particularly enjoy NOW (I'm not saying things you genuinely hate), start eating them in small amounts daily. Combined with a less processed diet, this does change your tastes fairly quickly (peppers, cherry tomatoes, cucumber etc taste very sweet and wonderfully fresh when your taste buds aren't looking for a massive sugar(or artificial sweetener) hit. I eat salad leaves, fresh veggies (raw) with almost every meal now and genuinely enjoy the flavours. Before... I would have balked at the idea of enjoying it now I love things like a steak (or roast chicken, or fish, lots of fish) portion with a pile of veg and a side salad.

Both the link between dietary saturated fat and blood cholesterol, also the simplistic differentiation between good/bad cholesterol, and finally the flawed assumotion that lower cholesterol levels are safer.

You are arguing that the the official advice is wrong but you don't even seem to know what it is. Current advice is not to lower cholesterol levels overall. It is to lower LDL-cholesterol (or non-HDL cholesterol). You can do this replacing saturated fats in diary and meat and increasing mono-unsaturated fat intake with olive oil, rapeseed oil or spreads based on these oils and to use them in food preparation.

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/08/23/an-unconventional-cardiologist-promotes-a-high-fat-diet/?_r=0

This cardiologist is one of the more publicity visible eatwell dissenters... there are others (all branches of medicine), my own DH and son amongst them (particular area of interest to both of them, obesity and diabetes).

Change is coming

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/drmalcolmkendrick.org/2016/10/20/saturated-fat-and-heart-disease/amp/?client=ms-android-samsung

Low fat is not healthier than high fat.

My knee-jerk response to that is "tell it to my gallbladder". Please do. I'd kill for a bacon double cheeseburger, with or without the bun, but the bun is the only thing I can safely eat.

For a slim healthy person I suppose it doesn't matter. Choose whatever way of eating you like. But I would guess that many on this site fall under the 'Female, Fat, over 40' demographic who almost definitely have gallstones whether they have become problematic or not. A high fat diet for them could end in their being rushed to A and E in agony. A friend of my mothers ended up in hospital last year after her gallbladder ruptured. She follows the latest eating fads, so I have no doubt she had been on high fat at some point preceding the attack.

I understand that many people have intolerances to some fruits or vegetables, no one thing is perfect for everyone, but it is surreal to me to see a high fat diet being championed as the way we should all be eating, when it could literally kill me!

Posting a link from one or two doctors who agree with you doesn't prove anything. If it did there wouldn't be doctors (fortunately not many) out there prescribing homoeopathic medicines. Many doctors are not too good at evaluating the evidence and one or two have the own agendas (e.g. they just like to be controversial for the sake of it). There is a wide consensus of opinion amongst the vast majority experts that the evidence demonstrates that those with lower saturated fat diets are likely to have a lower risk of heart disease. That doesn't mean that the diet has to be low in fat overall, it is just saturated fat which is the problem.

I'm guessing in your zeal to imagine that what I posted was 'a link from one or two doctors who agree with you' you missed the numerous huge, robust metastudies referenced on that site that have contradicted the diet-heart hypothesis over decades.

Nice try though. Since you have a healthy disdain for the quackery of homeopathy, as of course you should, I'd have thought robust science would have appealed instead.

But you know, folks never cease to surprise me.

For those that are interested, the blog linked to also references hundreds of well constructed studies that constitute a huge body of evidence against the received wisdom that dietary saturated fat is bad.

Judge for yourselves.

Public health advice can be very slow to turn around when it has been recommending actively harmful advice. Eating peanuts in pregnancy is a classic example. The evidence that peanut avoidance was causing, not reducing allergies was in the public domain for a long time before it was officially acknowledged.

That advice was actively harmful and should have been reversed much sooner.

We need carbs to survive. It's what fuels us, gives us energy.

People think carbs are the devil.

Also this crap about eating six small meals throughout the day. I despair.

I'm guessing in your zeal to imagine that what I posted was 'a link from one or two doctors who agree with you' you missed the numerous huge, robust metastudies referenced on that site that have contradicted the diet-heart hypothesis over decades.

I only saw a couple of cherry picked references. There are plenty of others better designed systematic reviews which support reducing saturated fat in the diet.

For example www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26068959?access_num=26068959&link_type=MED&dopt=Abstract

Regardless, if your lipid profile, HbA1c and BMI well within recommended levels then carry on with your high saturated fat and low carb diet.

I've seen nobody recommending NO carbs though, have you?
Although you'd be surprised how few carbs are actually necessary to survive.
Some children with epilepsy are placed on very severely carb restricted diets precisely because it has therapeutic benefit.

I understand how counterintuitive it feels to hear a completely different opinion after a lifetime of 'carbs are perfectly healthy in large quantities' narrative.

I have been there too.
I still keep double checking when I hear of new studies to see if this continues to hold water.
scepticism is a good thing!

I understand how counterintuitive it feels to hear a completely different opinion after a lifetime of 'carbs are perfectly healthy in large quantities' narrative.

I don't think that has been the official advice for a long long time though and there is certainly no recommendation to replace fat with sugar etc. Current recommendations are that consumption of saturated fat should be low but there is no recommendation to reduce other fats. Your statement that "The "evidence" that low fat dairy and meat reduce heart disease has been disproven" is certainly not true.

To be honest, since you seem disinterested in even looking at the evidence I'm happy to leave it there, so shall we?

I'm happy to signpost others to the info if they are interested.

Current "healthy eating" guidelines might not label themselves as high carbohydrate diets but that's EXACTLY what they are.

By recommending low fat and minimising the importance of animal derived protein sources, they are pushing carbohydrate consumption up - everything is composed of fat, protein or carbohydrate.

It you demonise fat and reduce protein (and keep calorie intake the same), then your diet will be high in carbohydrate because that's all that's left! It was the adoption of exactly that recommendation that that led to hugely increased levels of obesity and metabolic disease over the past 35/40 years.