To question the Eat Well plate?

[TheGruffaloMother]

I know it can take an age to filter new evidence down into official advice but am really struggling to fathom why the Eat Well plate hasn't yet changed despite everything I keep seeing in the media suggesting we've known for a while now that eating such a high proportion of carbohydrate isn't necessarily healthy. Is high fat the way to go? High protein? Is the official advice wrong? Do the alternatives offer lasting ways to keep your weight under control?

Carbs are not essential for brain function. This comes from the idea that the brain needs some glucose. However we can make this from protein. Carbsa re actually the one food group not needed.

I also find marmite helpful for LCHF diet, for others doing this. there are lots of interesting useful books on the subject.

ShowME I was meaning how the "carbs are healthy" voice gets interpreted in practice.

The base of the food pyramid illustration in the link also showed how people came to believe carbohydrates, including the most refined ones, should be eaten in a greater quantity than any other food. That false idea came to be thought of as "healthy", when it is not healthy at all.

The "Eat Well Plate" has a large amount starchy, mainly white, carbohydrates illustrated as being equal in value to vegetables and fruit.

Then, given the vegetables and fruits on the other side also have carbohydrates - (a lot of them from high sugar too) the two added together means there are massively too many carbohydrates on the "Eat well plate", and its out of proportion to other food groups.

Pulses are given a tiny wedge on the E-WP. In reality someone vegetarian could eat a whole tin of pulses plus a lot of Broccoli together with a tablespoon of oil (not even shown) and be healthy, and not hungry for hours - having eaten a balance of carbohydrates, green vegetable and essential oil. They would not get fat.
A meat eater could eat fish, oil, and broccoli or someone could have a wedge of fatty cheese and a vegetable (as in cauliflower cheese) and still have had enough carbohydrate and protein and vegetable, not get hungry and not get fat.

No essential fats in the form of oils, nuts, avocados, coconut oil are shown on the E-WP. Only skim milk and yogurt are shown when in reality people who eat full fat versions will have less tendency to snack on sugar and less tendency to put on weight.

Basically, the message of the E-W plate is to live on carbohydrates as the main staple of your diet, have almost no fat, and a very little protein.

Medical research at Newcastle has led to the ideas behind The Low Blood Sugar Diet, which takes a new approach to preventing pre-diabetes from becoming diabetes through a different sort of diet. It is worth reading the introduction just to understand what happens to the body when too many carbohydrates are eaten and many of the principles described can be applied to everyday eating among people who do are not pre-diabetic or diabetic.

Fruit juices and smoothies as "Part of your [healthy] five a day", are so high in sugar that that was a very health-damaging, false, marketing-geared message that filtered through to us consumers over the last three decades.

Slim does not equate with being fit, and anyway, what does 'slim' mean?

Post 40, most people will struggle with weight gain, especially women, and this is because the body lays down fat stores in readiness for menopause. Fat on the thighs will help will oestrogen manufacture, but too much fat on the tummy will stress the adrenal glands, which take over from the ovaries post menopause.

Fish and chips is a great supper dish, but best eaten before 8pm. I think a lot of people are working all the hours and then eat late. Carbs in form of vegetables and grains transform into different, essential sugars, necessary for repair of tissue and a healthy weight balance.

So. Set meal times, no snacking in between and keeping calories down to what it should be given your sex and height. Eat what you like, always within reason. Try not to waste food. Don't shop whilst hungry. And keep everything within budget. Eating 3,500 calories a day is very expensive on the purse. And it isn't needed.

Whole milk is pretty low in fat - I was only joking when I said it was teeming with fat. I notice that if I have cereal for breakfast, I don't get as hungry if I have whole milk.

I would imagine a glass of milk to be a pretty healthy drink.

I know what will make me put on weight - eating out often, takeaways, high carb/high fat meals like pasta in creamy sauce. They're things I'd rather just have occasionally. I love really good chips and have them 2 or 3 times a year, not mediocre ones several times a week'
I don't have a sweet tooth so I can avoid biscuits and cakes (if Ii open a packet it doesn't last). I don't like eating in the evening.
I love salad but not dressing.

Then, given the vegetables and fruits on the other side also have carbohydrates - (a lot of them from high sugar too) the two added together means there are massively too many carbohydrates on the "Eat well plate", and its out of proportion to other food groups.

This is what I see when I look at the Eat Well plate but was finding it difficult to explain exactly what I meant. To me, the plate depicts 2/3 carbs, not 1/3. But one type has fewer calories and is more vitamin rich than the other. I really do think the carbs-from-grain-and-spuds should be much smaller.

I have had an adult 30 year lifetime of gaining and losing weight.
Not in a massively yoyo crazy dieting way, and only over about a 1.5 stone range.
This I know for a fact: when I'm frequently eating large meals and meals I'm not hungry for, I put on weight.
When I eat less, and actually remember what passing hunger pangs before the next meal feel like, I lose weight.

Whatever combination of carbs etc I eat.

35% carbs on eatwell plate -- by volume or calories, I guess. Hardly more than 1/3 of total calories No sugary items at all in this picture, either. Carbs doesn't have to mean sugary food. Eatwell plate is about the proportions I eat.

Speaking of milk, the school milk is semi-skimmed, and we are only allowed to change to full fat for 'health reasons'. Studies have shown children having full fat milk are thinner! Also we are only allowed to send fruit for snack and DS (8) was told off for having a piece of cheese as it 'wasn't healthy'.

We have little choice in these things. It makes me sad as we are giving the low fat message to the children too.

Carbs are sugar- people need to realise they are just different forms of sugar.

Lljkk, the eatwell isnt 35% carb, more like 60-70%, especially true for vegetarians/vegans.

It's 35% starchy, mostly refined grain based carbs (bread, pasta etc are refined but many people wouldn't immediately recognise them as such).

Another third is fruit and veg, and the protien, dairy products and sweet stuff can contain a lot of carbohydrate too... that's a LOT of carbohydrate when you add it all up.

How many people on this thread eat 33% as fruit and veg, I wonder.

Eat well is 33-37% carbs. 60-70% is not following Eatwell.
Bread has fat & protein in it, too, btw, veg can have protein in it, etc., if one is going to moan about extra carbs in milk products or yams...

The Eatwell Plate Percentages

"The eatwell plate is based on the basic five food groups and by providing a visual representation of each food as well as the proportion it should make up in a diet. The percentages for the eatwell plate are the following:

Fruit and vegetables: 33%
Bread, rice, potatoes pasta and other starchy foods: 33%
Milk and other dairy products : 15%
Meat, fish, egg, beans and other non-diary sources of protein: 12%
Foods and drinks high in fat or sugar: 7%"

Protein, vegetables and pulses are also metabolised into sugar, it's just longer lasting. Not the refined sugar or corn syrup that is now in so many sweets. Both are addictive and the body doesn't metabolise them well.

Medical research at Newcastle has led to the ideas behind The Low Blood Sugar Diet,

This isn't quite true. Largely, I suspect Mosely's need to jump on a band wagon lead to that. The Newcastle research consisted of 11 people where just over half reversed their T2 diabetes. The slightly larger follow up trial was a bit less promising. Which is why AFAIC they are refining their hypothesis slightly and turning their attention towards a slightly different aspect. Which is good science. It's how it's supposed to work and part of the reason why the NHS doesn't change it's policy every time the UK media reports a new 'breakthrough'.

The total carbohydrate content is 60-70%, not 35%, because fruit and veg, pulses, dairy etc also contain carbs.

Follow the eatwell and you could easily eat 250-300g carb a day. I think for most people, 100-150g day would be better (I aim for around 70g day mostly from leaves and non starchy veg).

Can anyone link to any factual info on how other countries are advised to eat?

Zara, you can google that & tell us. Will be similar to UK for Anglo countries.
Excess food converts to fat in the body, not carbs.

2008 data for Britain: avg (female) carb intake = 50.5% of the avg 1771 cals, or 179 grams of carbs. (men get 239). Given that most people don't follow Eatwell, b/c they don't eat enough veg & eat too much sugar, too many carbs & fat, an "easy" 250-300g of carbs is unsubstantiated.

I think that the "eatwell" guide probably does need updating in that there is evidence that some fats e.g. nuts are good for you (although obviously not too much). However, the ultimate aim of the diet is to reduce cardiovascular disease. Drinking full fat milk and higher fat meat will raise ldl cholesterol which will increase the risk of heart disease.

It's true that high protein fills you up better, but long term, a low carb diet is not better for you than a balanced diet. That's a fad.

Obesity is not to do with balanced amounts of complex carb, protein and dairy. It's about masses of sugar packed into refined carbs, coupled with a staggering decrease in how much exercise people take day by day.

High protein diets long term will also cause havoc with health. Ketosis is not a healthy state for the body to be in permanently, nor is constipation!

Damn... I have to take that back. (distracting cat fighting for my lap). That was USA data & the UK numbers (annex 8 in this long doc) do overlap with the values AndHoldTheBun said.

But those people aren't following Eatwell... Very few people follow it.

You don;t have to eat high protein on a low carb diet. LCHF diets are moderate protein. The cholesterol and high fat link with heart disease has been disproven, in fact high cholesterol can be good. In particular HDL which raises on a high fat diet. Also, it is the small dense LDL (not the total LDL) and the triglycerides which are the problem (originating from carbs).

Just clearing up some misconceptions.

Also, it is the small dense LDL (not the total LDL) and the triglycerides which are the problem (originating from carbs).

It is the LDL cholesterol and the triglycerides which are the problem. However, these will increase if you eat full fat milk and other dairy products and higher fat meats.

Picking up on the "vegan diets aren't natural because you need to supplement b12". This is only because of modern production methods and, um, good hygiene. B12 comes from anaerobic bacteria living in animal guts. In ye olden days, eating veg would have given you b12 because all the animal poop hadn't been washed off before we ate it! Meat eaters can also suffer from b12 deficiency because of more hygienic slaughterhouse production. Everyone should supplement, really (or eat known high b12 items if a meat eater, eg liver and shellfish).

Sorry, I know this is a total aside but I get annoyed at people saying a vegan diet is unnatural because of the b12 issue (there are other arguments but the b12 issue is ingenuous)!

nutritionstudies.org/12-questions-answered-regarding-vitamin-b12/

People who don't follow the eatwell guide still tend to be aware of its main messages, and IMO that tends to push them towards eating much more carbohydrate i.e. (over eating) snacking on highly processed carbs such as rice cakes, corn chips etc because they have things like LOW FAT, NO FAT, NO ADDED SUGAR - and are therefore perceived to be "healthy" or
maybe "better for me than the bar of chocolate I really want" iykwim... and more carbohydrate snack food in your diet means less room for actual food with nutritional value.

More "healthy low fat, low added sugar" processed carbohydrate is also a driver for metabolic diseases. Sadly about 80% of the shelf space in a typical supermarket is filled processed carbohydrate foods (many emblazoned with some kind of "healthy" claim)