-isms.

[dailyshite]

This is a thread inspired by a thread, rather than a TAAT.

Does anyone else think that sometimes, when there are clear 'isms' being displayed on a thread it is a fantastic illustration of what some people have to deal with every single day and an opportunity to raise awareness and challenge some of the misconceptions and poor attitudes which make people's lives so difficult.

When these are deleted, it shuts down the debate and the cycle of ignorance keeps going.

The other problem I've found is that there are activists who object to anyone saying disability is vulnerability - that doesn't match up with many of the views and experiences of people who care for a loved one with a disability. So much time is spent arguing the semantics and still nobody is getting educated.

It feels like it doesn't matter how much I try to educate, there will always be those who just won't ever get it until it touches them directly. I've ended up giving a huge amount of myself and feeling humiliated for being a mug at the end of it all.

Sunshine - ASD is such a huge spectrum though. I had the parent of a high functioning child have a major go at me (not on here) because I comment that my so wouldn't go to university. Apparently I was the problem and had low expectations. My son is non-verbal, has severe LD's, epilepsy and needs 2:1 care. Going to university is so far from anything that is going to happen I wasn't being disablist or disrespectful.

I wish they'd separate out the autisms as so much of the neurodiversity arguments just don't apply to him. Doesn't mean I don't recognise there are those that share the same dx (although they prob have different underlying conditions) who find the concepts useful and I fully support them in defining themselves in that way. I get very cross when they think they know more about my son than me though.

Alba - it is draining, totally. That's why I kind of feel that with so many of us on here, no one person has to do it by themselves and then I get frustrated when attempts to challenge misunderstanding or prejudice is shut down.

FWIW I am in awe of the strength and resilience my son shows on a day to day basis to function in the way that he does, however he is still incredibly vulnerable in many many ways. If society bucked it's ideas up and there weren't so many dicks out there, his life would be much easier but sadly there are lots of arseholes and all I can do is try to help him to navigate his way through that in a safe way. Challenging prejudice and plain inaccurate views is one way of making society better, but it is like shouting in an echo chamber sometimes.

I also hope that now we're beginning to see language that steers away from the usual disability stuff and points more towards inclusive thinking, making things better for everyone. Sorry I know that sounds like corporate bollocks but it has made a difference from where I am and now we're all living longer and acquiring disabilities throughout life, surely this 'othering' will start to die out eventually...

What do you mean neurodiversty arguments? It's not an argument it's a term that is non offensive. It doesn't mean everyone will be the same by any stretch, I'm well aware there a huge spectrum- there is with many disabilities. But saying is asd is still offensive wherever their function lies. They are still a person and still deserve the dignity of being addressed as a human rather than a condition.

I was the OP of the previous thread and people's experienced helped me. I am shocked to see it was taken down. I didn't intend it to be goady or upset anyone.
It I had thought about it properly (which people's experience helped me do) I could have seen that the lady who grabbed my son didn't have the capacity to understand what had happened.
TBH I was initially a bit angry that the incident had happened but MNers helped me see that these things do happen even with everyone trying their best and I needed to have more empty. I was so interested to read what people have experienced within their professional and private lives.
I honestly had no idea the threat would be so controversial - silly and naive I now see!
My point is to say thank you to those nice people on the OT and I hope no one was upset as the thread went on (I stopped reading at about 140 comments as I went to sleep).

The upsetting comments were not made by you little.

Your thread should not have attracted such comments but sadly there are still some people around who are not willing to see the bigger picture. You are not one of them.

So few people have experience or even minor interactions with people who have various disabilities that they perceive them to be those people and should be dealt with .
It only takes some empathy and understanding to see the world is big enough for everyone but not enough people have those two qualities.

Little - I totally agree with Racoon and this thread, whilst triggered by yours, isn't about yours per se. It's more of a general wondering about the benefits / drawbacks of MN approach to deleting threads where certain isms were displayed.

I felt that your posts were a really good example of why we need these threads to stay up.

Daily I agree - as much as I hate the idea that I'm vulnerable myself because of my disability, I am. I guess we need to convey to people that every single person is different. People can be vulnerable with or without disability, but it's not always our assumption to make - that's the bit that's hardest to get across.

In my workplace where it's pretty progressive in terms of policy and procedure, there are still horrifying instances of direct discrimination - especially amongst senior boss who've been there a long time - but also I've been stigmatised by others who have different disabilities, because they can't possibly be discriminatory if they're disabled themselves

Being open and honest about what you know/don't know is the only way forward I think. I never refuse a question but it is hard to keep trying sometimes.

I felt that your posts were a really good example of why we need these threads to stay up.

^^ Absolutely.

It's the 'oh but we're not talking about you' threads that bug me. The benefits threads where everyone's going on about how tc need cut who say oh not for those who are disabled and deserve them but who continue on when it's pointed out that those on tc often have disabilities because we can't manage to work long hours or because we are carers to children with severe disabilities who we can't afford or source childcare for or because atos are completely unfair or 101 other reasons they refuse to address it and continue to be excited about cuts that are ending people's lives.

We don't even get TCS & these threads drive me insane.

Or the ones that are about 'rude' or 'naughty' children. And posters will be oh if your kids have sn then this isn't about them is it- but how can they know? You can't see most disabilities, but they can't broaden their minds around that. It's just brick wall head banging.

But alba is it dusability itself that makes you and your son vulnerable or is it society's treatment of disability.

I thinking looking at this from both the medical and social model of disability can be helpful. If the UK wasn't so anti disability in the first place many people wouldn't be so vulnerable in many ways. I still can't get over how little attension the UN's report has received, no apology from politicians for causing this situation, no pledge to change it, no uproar from anyone really. Society is quite happy for the problems of people with disabilities to remain hidden.

I agree. I also think we could sometimes have a less aggressive attitude to posters who are misinformed but well intentioned. I've seen really nasty replies to people who, while perhaps posting under a misconception, probably didn't mean any harm. I think in those cases it's more useful to just explain why whatever they said isn't actually true without jumping down their necks.

I don't think people did jump on the op, I think they told her their thoughts and the op listened. In that way the thread worked. However there were some horrific posts on that thread and no amount of education would have changed those people views. It just makes me slightly impatient that people whose lives are really fucking difficult at times, are expected to take on yet another job. If I feel weary about it then god knows how they feel. I do feel that disablist language is treated differently to racist language. I can't work out of this is a MN thing or a societal thing.

I came onto that thread after the OP had been 'educated' & agree it sounds as if it worked well and was how these threads on mumsnet tended to run year and years ago.

Then it just turned horrible. Interestingly the author of one of the worst and most goady posts - describing the woman with LD's as 'molesting' (ffs) the child & iirc saying that people 'like that' should be kept away from others has posted on this thread.

I'd be interested to hear whether they have changed his/her mind. Or are interested in understanding more about LD's.Their post was pretty outrageous and not someone I'd usually waste time trying to 'educate'. But if they were genuinely confused that people with LD's and brain injuries sometimes have problems self regulating I'm happy to engage in further discussion. If they just want to say 'people like that' should be kept away from nice normal families then forget it. I cba.

She posted how kids with sn drain schools on another thread

So a joy all over mn then

Why are posters like that allowed to stay?

If that poster had said all blacks should be kept under control and are a drain on schools they would be banned. Yet to say it about those with a disability its apparently fine.

Oh and the words they used were those people how nice and inclusive

Absolutely racoon- have you read the UN report on their disability rights investigation? Part of the conclusion they reached was because the media uses people with disabilities as scape goats and portrays them as lazy and scroungers (think that's the terms they used). The adult adhd group I use launched a huge email campaign to mps after a number of papers had head lines saying adHD doesn't exist - if they said home sexuality doesn't exist, that it was caused by bad parenting or diet there would be huge public outrage- but the protected characteristic part of equalities act doesn't seem to apply to disabilities. There were similar articles about free cars if you kid has adhd, free money for addicts (addictions as mh problems are disabilities), all the bloody channel five programs - bad enough they are attacking benefits claimants as a group but many of them claim because of disability, and are portrayed so negatively they are practically put out there as the modern equivalent of a freak show- and some will be vulnerable to being manipulated in that way because of their disabilities. It's demonising.

Oh someone with a thing against disabled people then, whatever the disability. People like the woman in the OP of the original thread were almost certainly in a special school (my own one of 'those people' is) so not a drain on any nice normal children or nice normal teachers (clearly shouldn't be allowed out though)

I know Sun it sickens me that the one group who cannot do anything about their situation as contrary to popular belief being disabled is not a choice are just left to the wolves

This is a really interesting thread!

Pagwatch - I, for one, will take on board your comment about spreading the load of answering offensive comments. I've never posted on such threads for a couple of reasons:

• since I don't have personal experience I've generally felt I don't have any 'right' to.
• I worry that I'll say the wrong thing and get shouted down by people who do know what they are talking about! I definitely fall into Jelly's 'well meaning but ill-informed' category sometimes!

But I guess even a not-so-perfect comment might spread the load a bit.

That's great Strawberry, I appreciate your comment.

I do understand if people are hesitant to get involved as they feel it's their right to comment - you expressed that well. I just think it's time it became like racism. We all need to speak up regardless of whether we are directly affected. The silent majority are the ones that affect these things.

A relative was laughing at a joke on Facebook where the punchline was about someone being retarded
I have just left it. I can't be arsed today but it's depressing that all of my DSs cousins and aunts and uncles etc don't feel obliged to pull her up on it. They are probably waiting for me to respond.

It would be gratifying if sometimes, as you say, the load was spread a little .