-isms.

[dailyshite]

This is a thread inspired by a thread, rather than a TAAT.

Does anyone else think that sometimes, when there are clear 'isms' being displayed on a thread it is a fantastic illustration of what some people have to deal with every single day and an opportunity to raise awareness and challenge some of the misconceptions and poor attitudes which make people's lives so difficult.

When these are deleted, it shuts down the debate and the cycle of ignorance keeps going.

That's the sort of unhelpful comment that makes me think why bother TBH rihardbucket.

Feel free to ask any questions.

Great idea hazey! I totally understand where you are coming from, when you are completely battered down by it all, it can feel like too much. Maybe thats where the strength in numbers comes from (cut off one head and two grow back - to paraphrase hydra!)

Why do you think people complain Richard?

at wank branding.

I do get really a bit tired of the idea that posters dealing with disability should endlessly and patiently educate. I still do it. I still try to post patiently but really, it sometimes just heightens the isolation.
There are a couple of posters I can think of who enter into discussions around disability when they are not directly affected but have found a way to become knowledgable and are empathetic. Really, just a few.
Lots of other posters are happy to learn and be educated, gain some insight into the huge challenges faced by some posters everyday yet never seem to think 'hang on, that poster is being horribly offensive about ASD and I know about that - I will post'
Far to many pat themselves on the back for learning and understanding and then ignore threads where all sorts of horrible crap is being posted.
I can sometimes open a thread with an obviously disablist tone and know the names of most of the posters because they are living with disability.

I think my irritation with the endless expectation that knackered, battered posters educate but that education rarely translates into anyone deciding to actually post in support. That bit is depressing because it just highlights the isolation.

Exactly Hazey.

And after a bad day sometimes you just want to come on here for some "escapism" not to have to see more of the crap you have been dealing with all day.

For anyone unsure of how hard things can be find the thread from yesterday highlighting how hard something as simple as a trip to the supermarket can be. That was a great thread (obviously awful it's needed) because people were discussing and asking questions in a way that was people wanting to understand which is greAt. (Or it was when I last looked at it anyway!)

I completely understand how exhausting it must be to constantly educate.

OTOH I have to admit I am also endlessly grateful people have done so. It actually got me a job working with a girl with autism and not only do I LOVE it I feel (sorry to boast!) I'm actually quite good at it and I 100% have Mumsnet to thank.

Cherry - that is great news!

A few mumsnetters left the forum because of the disabilist views that are thrown around here and HQs stance I saw on another thread oh so n so flounced because things dont go their way so still people don't get it so and so left because they were upset and frustrated.

Often those open to being educated are those who already have educated themselves.

I agree with that, but every day is still an education on Mumsnet.

Not just for those without disabilities/SN but also for those with (or parents of children with).

You can't educate yourself on every single kind of disability or SN out there, and even if you could, it's learning about how these things can affect people/families individually that can be a real eye opener.

That's not really something you can get from reading Google links and blogs.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, it's the conversations here that are very educational, due to the diversity.

I agree with that worra

I think really it's the attitudes and "tone" of some posts which is the issue. When people come on being judgemental and rather than accept they may have been wrong carry on in the same manner that's what gets people's backs up.

The problem I find with strength in numbers on this site is that tends to come from parents of kids with disabilities, & I often find they are just as offensive in different ways. I actively avoid that sn boards here unless I want to ask a specific question because it seems so much more hurtful that parents of kids like me say sn kid or my kids is asd or talk about how weird or how gross or how difficult their kids are being. And the talk about 'curing' them with diets or similar or the wishing that their kids weren't who they are.... but then posts by teachers going on about how it's not fair that they treat one kid differently to the others or how some kids use sn as an excuse or how it's just bad parenting or how they are little shit's not really disabled.

But that's my triggers, and I guess it's equally as frustrating getting attacked by people in wheelchairs for using disabled toilets or lifts just because they can't see my disabilities or my children's so deem us so far beneath them.

Yes it is the attitudes and tone you are right sirzy

Sunshine, teacher threads about SN trigger me too, probably because in RL this is an area of contention.
On the SN boards (not that I'm there much) I do find that shitty attitudes are usually patiently challenged though.

I find disablist attitudes more hurtful when it comes from a RL source, because I can't say what I want to and come across as a gibbering wreck.

Sunshine, that is a really good point. We are not clones and what some people find offensive, others won't (I have a real thing about SN kids / the child is ASD and can get really riled about it but have had a conversation with someone on here who is on the autism spectrum who got quite cross with me about it - fair view and I totally get where she was coming from but I still wouldn't refer to my child in that way unless at some point that is how he wants to refer to himself).

Some of those other things are exactly the sort of thing that I think we should be allowed to challenge without being shut down because it gets too challenging for MNHQ.

I do not think that thread should have been deleted. It showed not only the ignorance of a few but also the compassion and understanding of others. It appears those who feel ^those people^ with SN should be controlled or not out in public or better yet cured win because their comments go with the thread.

How can posters educate those who want to understand when threads explaining what life is like get shut down.

That thread was goady and maybe a fabrication it should have got deleted sooner yes posters were kind compasionate and defending the person who poked the baby but the utter nonsense some posters spouted was abusive and disabalist these people do not need screen time or do they want educating

I kind of agree Racoon. I would have preferred to see individual disablist/wanky posts deleted than the whole thread.

But realistically, HQ will be working on a skeleton staff at this time of year, so probably don't have the time to constantly keep up with it.

I find it easier irl cloud. Mainly because I am fairly calmly assesertive and confident with confrontation. I think I feel more upset because on here it's parents of kid, who may effectively make their child feel that worthless, if they pass on those negative messages about disability.

A person with asd worded it exactly that way daily? I think aspie and neurodiverse are important terms, but they are both service user based terms that are about positivity not 'dis'ability. The sn kid or is asd probably isn't that big of a deal in some context, I have a friend whose English is her second language who misuses terns in this way sometimes, but she's hugely supportive and accepting and irl ofcourse it's possible to see that, so the precise language isn't the end of the world then. But there are also those it's a sign of misunderstanding, of seeing a person just as their disability and of valuing them as lesser, different, because of it. And because you can't see what's behind it online it needs addressed imo. A bit like how if I was chatting with friends I wouldn't bat and eye lid if someone said they wanted to strangle their dh, but on here it's a big problem (rightly so). There's an adult adhd forum I use sometimes. People sometimes refer to themselves as adhers- I don't- but if they want to fair enough, but here that would be othering would it not? It's not used as a negative or a term to signify difference in value if used by ourselves, but often is if used by others. Same way my gay friends affectionately term themselves queer (and gave my kids the 'that's not my fairy' book when little) but it wouldn't be acceptable for others to term them that.

I disagree MrsJayy, the OP was really open to a range of views and very quickly came back to say that her perception had changed.

There was a comment along the lines of people with SEN learning how to stop behaving in a particular way which was very ill informed but was being challenged. The only issue I could see was that the deletion messages did not explain why the messages were deleted. Out of interest in the case of other 'isms', does the deletion message say why?

Racoon's point about the thread dying with those comments is a good one - there is no opportunity to challenge those statements.

I agree MrsJay but at the same time some posters shared real experiences and explained what it is like to be the carer of a person with SN. I am probably being naive in thinking that those shared stories could maybe change somebody's view and perception and they are what is important on such threads.

Worra I hope you are right regarding the staffing levels

I think that the op only coming back once or twice to quickly say how they changed their mind after a handful of posts often are a sign of someone out to start a bunfight

I just don't think that threads op rang true I didn't post on it because i would have been deleted for troll hunting or ganging up on. I think a lot of the replies were lovely and informative but the posters were opening up to a goady fecker which is a shame

Racoon's point about the thread dying with those comments is a good one - there is no opportunity to challenge those statements.

Yes and it also ties in with what Pagwatch said....

Lots of other posters are happy to learn and be educated, gain some insight into the huge challenges faced by some posters everyday yet never seem to think 'hang on, that poster is being horribly offensive about ASD and I know about that - I will post'
Far to many pat themselves on the back for learning and understanding and then ignore threads where all sorts of horrible crap is being posted.

I think quite a few posters challenged the disablist twats on that thread, but now it's been deleted, anyone who missed the thread will be unaware of that.

Probably Sun.

I have worked for 25 years in the support/healthcare sector and some days I see how far society has come from locking people in institutions to now encouraging supported living but some of those posts took be back to the start of my career

Thats interesting Sun, I didn't see it like that (but my dh often calls me Pollyanna because I can be too nice, verging on naive so you may well be right )

Worra - perhaps you are right, I hope more people will stand up and challenge things when they have learned - it's hard to know who everyone is on a forum, so whether they are people with experience or others who have empathy / the ability and willingness to listen to and learn from the experience of others.