To expect school to admit that it's not the right place

[Becks84]

I have a six year old boy with special needs (ADHD) in year one at a voluntary aided primary school. He had lots of problems throughout reception but as he was only diagnosed in September the school felt prior to this there'd be no point apply for an ehcp or top up funding. We went back to school in Septemebr with his official diagnosis and the Senco and head teacher told us that there's no point applying for an ehcp as it wouldn't change anything and it wouldn't be a good idea for our boy to have one to one as he won't learn to work independently. Well from that point on things went downhill for my son at school. His behaviour become drastically worse ie hitting teachers other kids and staff, spitting, swearing etc and he's tried to run off school grounds numerous times.

By October there'd been a turn around and all of a sudden school decided it would be best to apply for finding and the ehcp. They have referred him to the behaviour improvement team and had specialists come in and observe him. All this in my opinion, has come to late as my son isn't coping. Hes been excluded from school four times this term and his last one which was for a full week (the last week before Xmas) had a terrible affect on him as he was crying constantly asking why he can't go to school and see his friends. In my opinion school have purposely given such a long exclusion so that he was out of the way the last week before term, and they more or less admitted this when I confronted them. They said that what with all the change that week would bring they felt he wouldn't cope.

My issue is that despite the fact they keep excluding him they won't admit they can't cope and that it's not the right school for him.

Because of the mixed messages and crap communication from school I've had to seek independent help from an organisation who are specialised in school procedures, law, exclusions etc. A woman contacted me back and agreed to come to all of our school meetings as a back up for me and to make sure they are doing things to the letter. The Senco is completely hopeless if I'm being honest and won't tell you straight how things are and dodges any questions I have. School have applied for ehcp and top up funding but this was only two weeks ago and the deputy head has told me that they may have no choice but to permanently exclude my son before any of the support (from the behaviour team) or funding and ehcp can be put into place. The deputy head was the only one to tell me straight and how serious the situation is, and whilst I appreciate that I can't help but panic now as I know my son won't last long in January before he's excluded again. I just don't udberstand why the school would apply for all this extra support but then are willing to exclude him before it can start. Surely they need to give him a chance and to see if things improve before threatening us with permanent exclusion. Am I being unreasonable here?

I would imagine your friend's DS's placement is on the strength of his dx.

I run specialist autism provision and all the pupils who come to me have displayed extremely challenging behaviour in their previous setting. Most have been excluded many times and some permanently excluded. However, they can only be placed with me if they have a dx of ASD.

Another pupil in the same class with exactly the same presentation who did not have a dx of ASD (regardless of what other dx they had) would fall under SEMH and there would be no specialist/ special provision available for them.

While there is stigma to both adhd and asd it is considerabley worse with adhd. Generally it's assumed to be nothing more than bad parenting and too much sugar. Which is bullshit. Adhd as a diagnosis has been around since dsm 3 & before under different names. So teachers imo are much more prejudice about it than asd, which is why I start almost every conversation with new ones by poin ting out i have it! So that explains the teachers bit of it, and like pp says there are specialist schools and units for asd. Placements can be given under special circumstances if being assessed for asd, but it's at lea discretion and I understand we are a rare case for that one.

My advice to you would be to have a really clear idea in your mind about what you want for your DS- as you can drive the EHCP process towards this.

Do you want him to stay in mainstream with a full time 1:1? (Maybe do some reading about the pros and cons of 1:1 before you decide this.) If so, you need to work hard with the school so they are also saying that he could have his needs met with them with 1:1.

Do you want a specialist/ special placement? If so, I would start researching now as to what there is in your area that he would be eligible for and that you think would meet his needs. You could try to get an appointment to look round the option/ options (although many settings will not show parents round before placement has been offered).

You will be asked what you want for your DS as part of the EHCP process, you need to know so you can influence the decision.

Like pp have said, if her DS is in a specialist ASD provision that may be why his transition has been easier for the school to deal with. That said, if you felt comfortable enough to arrange a meeting with the school with your friend coming along, you may benefit from her bringing her experience to the table in pushing forward a better interim strategy for your DS.

However, they can hold their hands up and admit it all they like- it will change absolutely nothing. What do you think happens?

The first thing that should happen is an immediate decision to proceed with an EHCP: the legal criterion is whether the child's needs can be met within the normal resources available in mainstream schools, so the LA can't sensibly argue that the criterion hasn't been met.

The LA has an absolute duty to ensure that children's SEN are met. Therefore if a school is telling them they can't meet the child's needs, that triggers a duty to do something about it urgently because the LA is in breach of its statutory duties. In the final analysis judicial review action could be taken if the LA refused to do anything.

I'm not sure if I've already mentioned it but my ds is also diagnosed with oppositional defiant disorder along side his ADHD. Does Odd come under Asd and the autism spectrum? Only it wasn't explained to me properly at diagnosis.

In terms of ds's schooling I honestly do not know if he needs a specialist school or just a better more equipped mainstream. Don't get me wrong I certainly think he'd do better and flourish more in specialist provision but it's doubtful he'd get it. I will certainly think about it but there's probably know point in looking into specialist schools i know whether or not the LA have agreed to assess my ds for an ehcp.

But if the school won't admit they can't meet his needs what happens then? Earlier this month we had a meeting with the Senco, deputy head and the behaviour improvement team. The behaviour specialists recommended school put in place a PSP (pastoral support plan). I didn't know much about it but to me it's just one step up from his IEP as it has targets they want my ds to meet an it details what support should be in place to help him meet these. It was only in place a week before my ds was excluded for five days (and then broke up for Xmas). I'm not sure what happens if the psp fails but the Senco told me they have to give it a chance to work. But then the deputy head told me they may not have a choice but to permanently exclude him before things have a chance to improve. I constantly get mixed messages and it's so frustrating.

Odd isn't part of asd, just another neurodevelopmemtal disorder, that has even more stigma attached to it than adhd im afraid. Pda is part of asd though- have you checked if he meets the criteria for that? There are alot of kids with odd starting to be reconsidered for pda. Much much more complicated to get a diagnosis though, but if camhs & pead agreed with you they would have to assess for asd first, which can open doors. If you google extreeme avoidance check list & see what fits. If it fits try the explosive child book.

Finding a school that is happy to make reasonable adjustments would help though. Our new one got things in place practically over night when previously the old school were claiming no ms would ever do what all the professionals were recommending. The huge difference in attitude has saved us. If you find the head of sen for the council and/or someone who will help at the la then you stand a better chance. We basicly only got so much help because of the hassle we caused them, called all the time, quoted there own inclusion policies etc.

Ah right. He was on the asd for a while and a coordinator for the team assessed him. They did a test (can't remember what it was called though) were he needed to score 3 out of 5 in four sections to receive a diagnosis of Asd. He scored 5/5 4/5 2/5 and 2/5 so just quite didn't meet the criteria. The coordinator said she wanted I gather some more information as he was borderline and didn't want to miss diagnose. This was in July but a few weeks later the paediatrician sent out of a form for me and school to fill in, Conners I think it was called. He scored highly for ADHD and Odd both at home and school so was given the diagnosis. He does tick al lot of asd boxes but can give eye contact and can focus at times and is able to pretend play (when his attention span allows). My friend said her son is the same yet he was diagnosed asd rather than ADHD.

Was he assessed for ASD at all? ODD is another neurological disorder which can appear as a co-morbid to others like ADHD. But I am more concerned it wasn't fully explained at diagnosis, particularly as your son is 6.

Crossed posts lol. I knew a lot about ADHD as I'd researched it at length but didn't know much about Odd. I've since read up about odd and he does fit the profile to a tee. I've also looked into PDA (after his diagnosis though) and he does seem to fit most of the signs and symptoms of that too.

My kids don't fit the typical presentation either. They have good eye contact, albeit shy, no echolailia, no stimming, very social in they're own way, have real friendships.

But they have difficulties in all four areas. And they meet the pda profile 100% (same for adhd). Lots of kids wit has asd will mask difficulties and appear to not have it, then fall apart in other ways. Often there can be misdiagnosis because of the wording used to answer the questions. It can be tough to think of kids as having difficulties in these areas when we can't see what's going on beneath the surface. I take it he was assessed through camhs? You can ask for a reassessment. Info from pead/ot/salt/ed psych can all be put forward as well as school. Does he fit the extreeme avoidance profile at all? Perhaps find out a bit more about the more atypical asd profiles because it can be hard to get past the stereotype in our minds.

Is your gp any help? One of the best things that can help with the health care assessments is to have a gp with experience of asd/adhd who backs you. Can you ask your gp who best has that background and switch. My gp sent round and email to ask alll the drs at our practice & we switched to the one who used to work with camhs.

I know the school stuff is so hard, I was at a loss when people asked me what I wanted first them. I couldn't imagine a solution that would work, but when I found the new school I cried minutes into being shown round because they were so obviously perfect. Mine barely attend more than a few hours each week yet we know it's 100% right. It felt overwhelming looking for it, and no one seemed to know there were other options when we asked, so it's worth asking every school individually. And, unless you are happy to home school, refuse point blank to remove him until there is a resolution. Once you remove them there's no help. If he was to be at home until there's a solution the attendance stats are effected which means the ht & la will want a resolution. And they should also provide specialist teaching team for at home (only a few hours) but that rarely happens unless at home a long time and you argue like crazy for it.

Do you have dla sorted? Direct payments from ss? You can self refer for these and that's another lot of professionals that can badger the lea to do something.

If he fits pda I would print of the extreeme avoidance check list & fill it in & have a decent gp push them to reassess for asd based on this. My kids asd assessments are going ahead in part because the pda profile is so spot on.

He's never been assessed by camhs but has seen multiple paediatricians, salt, ot and educational psychologists on and off since he was three. The only time we've seen our Gp was when he was 3 when first referred but have a great paediatrician now who are next due to see in February. I won't take him out of school don't worry. I've been advised not to as like you said there's no help then but I'm honestly panicking about sending him back to school next week as he doesn't want to be there. I just feel guilty all the time x

We have recently applied for dla but I'm not sure what direct payments are? x

Ask to be refered to camhs, ask to see asd team there. They will be much better at spoting atypical asd.

Direct payments are from ss for 'repite' but instead of giving actual respite these days they just pay you directly so you can then pay for the support needed -mothers helper, tutor, play therapist, sn nanny, etc etc you can self refer & it takes forever but they can also be another professional who puts in reports that can help.

The explosive child, playful parenting and non violent communication are ime the most helpful books. As well as Margo Sunderland stuff. Not helpful for school exactly, but might give you ideas that you can push for them to use. The pda society have a couple of print offs for handing over to school.

Do you have any out if school help? Riding first the disabled? Martial arts? Scouts?

It's tough I know, I'm so worn down by fighting for my two. Do you have carers allowance for you? Do you get a break?

Hiya. I get a break when he's at school and when my dh's home from work. He works a mixture d shifts so when he's on 2-10pm it's tough but then when he's home at 2pm he's on hand to help after school which is when my ds usually struggles. He doesn't do anything out of school, unlike my older two. He was having swimming lessons but he started having proper meltdowns and was clinging to me not wanting to go in. We tried him at boxing but he wouldn't/couldn't follow the instructions and we are waiting to hear if he's got a place in beavers. For the direct payments does the social worker come out to your home to discuss things? Just wondering if you get a right grilling about why you want the money or if they're a bit judges. Couldn't be doing with that right now lol x

I haven't been through it yet, our pead recommended we self refer so on the waiting list, but it's just an assessment of needs.

Direct payments/respite are really really hard to get. my DD is almost 9 with severe learning diffs and ASD, I have a younger child. A husband who is not well. and I am working 5 days a week during school hours. I have not had an hour to myself at home for years now and I really struggle. we have no family or support and I had a break down two years ago. we cannot get respite as we are 'coping'. Not sure if this is a postcode lottery but in my LA shit needs to hit fan until you can get some support.

If you don't get DLA, I would apply for this first. At least there is a realistic change to success (unlike respite/direct payments).

Our pead seemed to think because we are self funding tutors/therapy/specialist child care that we will meet the criteria easily. I guess we did get ehcps & dla/ca easily. But then I'm also used to dealing with these types of applications through work so somewhat 'easier' for us in that sense. I also think my kids probably seem more extreeme to others than to me, as I have adhd and worked with plenty adults & kids with similar dx so my 'norm' is different from most. But we also live in a good lea for this also.

But you don't get support without pushing first it anywhere, so it's allways worth trying.