To expect school to admit that it's not the right place

[Becks84]

I have a six year old boy with special needs (ADHD) in year one at a voluntary aided primary school. He had lots of problems throughout reception but as he was only diagnosed in September the school felt prior to this there'd be no point apply for an ehcp or top up funding. We went back to school in Septemebr with his official diagnosis and the Senco and head teacher told us that there's no point applying for an ehcp as it wouldn't change anything and it wouldn't be a good idea for our boy to have one to one as he won't learn to work independently. Well from that point on things went downhill for my son at school. His behaviour become drastically worse ie hitting teachers other kids and staff, spitting, swearing etc and he's tried to run off school grounds numerous times.

By October there'd been a turn around and all of a sudden school decided it would be best to apply for finding and the ehcp. They have referred him to the behaviour improvement team and had specialists come in and observe him. All this in my opinion, has come to late as my son isn't coping. Hes been excluded from school four times this term and his last one which was for a full week (the last week before Xmas) had a terrible affect on him as he was crying constantly asking why he can't go to school and see his friends. In my opinion school have purposely given such a long exclusion so that he was out of the way the last week before term, and they more or less admitted this when I confronted them. They said that what with all the change that week would bring they felt he wouldn't cope.

My issue is that despite the fact they keep excluding him they won't admit they can't cope and that it's not the right school for him.

Because of the mixed messages and crap communication from school I've had to seek independent help from an organisation who are specialised in school procedures, law, exclusions etc. A woman contacted me back and agreed to come to all of our school meetings as a back up for me and to make sure they are doing things to the letter. The Senco is completely hopeless if I'm being honest and won't tell you straight how things are and dodges any questions I have. School have applied for ehcp and top up funding but this was only two weeks ago and the deputy head has told me that they may have no choice but to permanently exclude my son before any of the support (from the behaviour team) or funding and ehcp can be put into place. The deputy head was the only one to tell me straight and how serious the situation is, and whilst I appreciate that I can't help but panic now as I know my son won't last long in January before he's excluded again. I just don't udberstand why the school would apply for all this extra support but then are willing to exclude him before it can start. Surely they need to give him a chance and to see if things improve before threatening us with permanent exclusion. Am I being unreasonable here?

My son's neurologist recommended trying a gfcf diet for example. Although that's more for ASD than ADHD. A lot of doctors seem happy with trying fish oils for ADHD.

Medication was a miracle for my DS. He started on them aged 8 much against my wishes TBH. I agreed to give them a trial for six months.

They were a miracle.

My non reading child was reading fluently within six months of going on the medication, over the next two years he went from not achieving even NC level 1 to being on a par academically with his peers. The progress was so huge that the HT said he had never seen anything like it in 40 years of teaching.

DS is now 14 and th first lot of progress hasn't kept up, he's now averaging around Level 4 under the old NC levels. But the he can read and write now so the curriculum is open to him. He gets fantastic support in his special school and will at the very least achieve certificates for functional skills in Maths and English. Enough to hopefully help him get started in life and find his niche.

Thanks very much Notmy, just for the record dd 9 has ASD, learning difficulties and goes to a special school, so I kind of understand a little. She used to go to the Mainstream primary school that ds I mentioned is going. They could not cope with her, but early on, they were on the ball. They applied for a statement (as it was then), when that was not working, the HT took me aside and explained that they could not meet her needs and that there needs to be a statement review, and to look around all the schools with units and special schools included in dd statement.

DD HT was on the ball, it helped that she has a grown dd with ASD so knew what to do. She told me that she would never exclude dd, she would remain in primary until the right school came up. We chose a specialist ASD school, as she was dx with ASD, it went to panel with HT totally supporting us and fighting our cause, and we got it. So dd moved there and is happy, achieving and settled. What a difference our experience to that of op, and my friends ds who went to a different school.

Op I feel they want to wash their hands of him, and do not wish to help him. They should not be excluding a 4 year old, there are other ways of doing things. I would not want my ds somewhere like that, you need to bring that meeting forward, it needs to happen soon.

catwoman0815

By "diagnosis" I mean that identification of issues and problems that must be addresses.

The point that teachergirl and I are making is the that an EHCP doesn't always come with funding.

Yes it is legal document. Yes it is a legal requirement.

But as Becks (and others) have pointed out mainstream schools are sometimes not the best place for pupils as they do not have the ability or funding to cope with the children's needs.

My dad's diet is a massive issue. He as sensory issues, mainly around noise but also around food. I've always been firm when it came to mealtimes and have always made one meal for my kids and if they didn't eat in then tough. I mean obviously I knew their genuine dislikes for example my older ds doesn't like butter and Rick creamy sauces and my dd doesn't like lamb so I won't make them but other than this they've been great eaters and rarely complain. My youngest ds however refuses 90% of te meals I make. I've done eveything from encouraging, usung visual aids and timetables, reward charts etc but nothing has worked. He wants to eat and snack constantly but not on the right foods. He wants to eat things like peanut butter on toast, cereals, sandwich meat, cakes biscuits etc. I stopped buying as many treats but then he started on the savoury foods and would eat a packet of ham when I wasn't looking. He becomes extremely aggressive when I say no to food which has got worse this week as with it being Christmas we obviously have a few treats in. I've let him have some in moderation but he had an hour long tantrum yesterday because I wouldn't allow him to have a mince pie. I have tried him with all sorts of healthy alternatives and he completely refuses to try them. He even lost weight early this year as he wasn't eating but it didn't make him try new foods. x

Op I wouldn't push too much with diet. I know it's hard not to, my exclusively bf babies were weaned onto organic avacado and humous and I was suitabley precious about it, until they started refusing and I remembered my issues with food. I thought everything tasted like dirt, a metallic taste and I have never coped with chewy meat or creamy anything. I out grew most of it, but not before my mother's rigid diet cures meant I was skin and bone. As an adult all the foods I hated as a child are what I love now, hence why my kids were weaned on them! The eating disorder she gave my has been much harder to out grow than the sensory sensitivities balancing themselves out in time (and they improved again once on the right Meds, which is common- many adults report that the right adhd Meds also improove symptoms that cross over into spd/asd/pda etc- mytolerance of taste, noise, and textures is easir now as is my coordination and pda type procrastination and odd type oppositional tendencies and the lack of impulse control that comes with all ndds.

The thing with restrictive diets not backed and being followed by medical professionals, alergy testing and dueticious support is they do damage, alot of my long term vegan friends tell megoing without dairy causes lactose intolerance for life, anemia will further worsen focus and often eggs are one of the few quability sources of iron more sensory sensitive kids eat (and vitd and a tone of other nutrients).

I'm never sold on the fear of adhd Meds, if drs said kids needed heart medications patients give it, if the drs advised cancer treatment there's uproar if parents withhold it, if drs advice trying adhd Meds (which are so easy to stop as they leave the system so quickly) it's cruel not to imo. If they advise against it fine, if they leave the descion upto the parents fine, but if they say this us worth trying.... but that's allways a personal bug bear if mine. You wouldn't expect a kid who can't walk to do without a wheelchair and just get on with it, so for kids who can't focus that bad medication is the same.

Oh and op self medicating for those of us who have adhd but arn't medicated in kids are common- which in littler kids is sugar and caffine (normally in the form of chocolate). There's a really good article called what the adhd brain wants that explains this. It's not a bad thing, I can't live without caffine!! But it's worth only feeding these foods at times when he will eat slower releasing forms of energy also. The sudden pick up is a huge relief when struggling, but a crash down prevented by protein and slow releasing carbs at the same time helps. Withholding that sudden pick up isn't the great option either though iyswim.

We had a really interesting thread at the adult adhd forum I use one time where a big group of us figure out we either start the day with coffee, caffinated drinks or chocolate to give us enought brain energy to cook a reasonable breaky!

If the paediatrician says he is currently too young for meds I would be listening to them over school, unless you feel it is something you want to try. The SENCo sounds out of his/her depth- I think the 45 days is a legal maximum a child can accumulate for fixed period exclusions in a single school year, but I think most schools and parents would be getting concerned long before that.

The school have shown their hand, and there is little point battling on so I would try and find out what the best school options are locally. If there is a local parent support group for SEN, maybe try and go along and speak to parents who are a few steps ahead of where you are now, as well as calling schools directly.

DS1 (11 with ASD) has a limited diet, it is hard, he goes through phases where he is open to trying more food and then back again to very restricted. We give him multi-vitamins but have backed off a lot.

I don't think anyone disputes the funding issues have hit schools hard but it is also really difficult to hear your child with SEN being discussed as some kind of burden. I desperately want a unit for DS1's secondary, but there are 5 spaces and we were the 44th enquiry when we went to view it in September. The chances of us getting a place are between slim and none, and I have to make the choice whether to send him to a secondary school who won't make the smallest adjustment, or keep him at home and kiss goodbye to any formal education for him.

The point that teachergirl and I are making is the that an EHCP doesn't always come with funding.

maybe but if I have an EHCP, the funding is not my problem. Contents needs to be delivered no matter what or who foots the bill. that is the beauty of it: a legally enforceable document.

He even lost weight early this year as he wasn't eating but it didn't make him try new foods.

In that case food is not a fight worth having right now. Your DS's food dislikes are all genuine and he probably wont do too badly on the diet you've described. He is under a lot of stress in other areas of his life and that is going to make him more reluctant to try new foods, food shouldn't be another battleground in his embattled little life. You don't want him losing weight. Start from what he likes and when he's feeling calmer work other foods in. Bear in mind that gfcf only makes a difference to a few people and it's not possible to predict whether your DS will be in that minority or not. And there's nothing wrong with peanut buttter toasties and cereal unless you are going gfcf - for slow-release energy and protein peanut butter sandwiches are a win, I'd let him live on them if he wanted . If he can't have many cakes and biscuits then maybe crackers, water biscuits, oatcakes will do instead? Nuts and raisins? If you can figure a way to get some fruit and veg into him that's a bonus but don't sweat it.

Whether the EHCP comes with funding or not isn't a parent's concern tbh because a well written EHCP has to be implemented anyway (get any proposed drafts checked by IPSEA or SOSSEN) regardless as to how the schools fund it. If the schools don't meet the terms of the EHCP then the parent has the right to legal redress which would mean that the school would have to prove they couldn't afford to fundit in which case the LA would have to pick up the tab.
Dd's new amended statement has a programme specified on there following assessment by ed psych, how long, how often and by whom is also specified. School need to implement this programme, how they fund it is up to them (I know they have no money SENCo told me herself) they don't have the option to ignore it, at worst they will have to go cap in hand to the LA or most likely funding will be removed from elsewhere to fund this programme.

FrayedHem, if you don't get the unit you want it could be worth looking at independent schools.

Megatherium I've looked into all options but tbh DS1's needs could be met within a mainstream secondary if they were actually prepared to offer a relatively small amount of flexibility, alas the local one just won't!

I have 1 with adhd and another under going diagnosis. He's def not too young for meds. We had to basically hang on for reception year as they won't diagnose or medicate until 6 here. We got his formal diagnosis just after his 6th birthday and went straight onto meds. We had 6 months of tweaking dosage ect but best thing ever. He's gone from bottom of the class to top, he can sit still ish and is actually a pleasure

The school aren't really in a position to 'admit' it is not the right place for him. They have to teach all the children on their roll. The only way they can demonstrate that they cannot meet a pupil's needs is by implementing all the expert advice they can pull in and proving this does not result in progress, and then, ultimately, by excluding- both of which this school are doing.

They are also applying for EHCP, which is not late in the day given that it is only the first term of Year 1. However, if the EHCP is granted, it still will not be the school's choice whether or not they can meet the needs. They can 'admit' that they can't when they are consulted for placement, but the LA can still override this and place the pupil with them if SEN Casework team believe the school can meet his needs.

If the EHCP is granted, when it comes to placement the SEN team see that he has no exclusions on his record I think they would almost certainly say the MS school was meeting his needs. So, OP, if you do want specialist education I wouldn't necessarily see the exclusions as anything other than a (sadly) necessary part of the process.

ask for a managed move into a PRU

Not all LAs have full time primary PRU provision, let alone primary specialist schools for EBD/SEMH. Mine doesn't. My entire, very large, LA has no specialist provision whatsoever for primary behavioural difficulties. The PRU offer a couple of sessions a week of 'nurture' provision- that's it.

sister I think they are if they are excluding him, with the possibility of premanently excluding him. It is evident that they are struggling to meet his needs, so really should be holding their hands up, and seeing what to do next to help this boy.

From what op has said, it certainly sounds as though they don't want him there and the burden of a child with such needs.

The school are not even waiting for the top up funding to start, they want to permently exclude him in the very near future, it sounds as though exclusion in this case is the first resort and not he last.

Really it is evident that the school cannot meet his needs, if they are excluding and are talking about permanent exclusion. I hope that meeting is about the future and paving the way forward for ds! You know, you can start an EHCP yourself. I hope they are documenting everything, his behaviour, exclusions etc, so that you can have it to use towards the EHCP.

The school aren't really in a position to 'admit' it is not the right place for him. They have to teach all the children on their roll. The only way they can demonstrate that they cannot meet a pupil's needs is by implementing all the expert advice they can pull in and proving this does not result in progress, and then, ultimately, by excluding- both of which this school are doing.

Well, no, the next step after proving the child is not making progress is to apply for an EHCP, not excluding him. The Exclusions guidance is very clear that particular care should be taken to avoid excluding children with SEN unless it is the absolute last resort.

It's not good enough to say that applying for an EHCP near the end of the first term in Year 1 is soon enough. OP's son's difficulties will have been evident before he started school, and the only reason this school gave originally for not applying was the lack of a diagnosis - however, there is absolutely nothing in the Code of Practice that says a diagnosis is a prerequisite for getting an EHCP. Then when he did have a diagnosis they changed tack and came up with a lot of rubbish about the EHCP not changing anything - how can they know that before the assessment happens? So they've wasted a lot of time needlessly.

So far as the school's ability to meet needs once an EHCP is in place is concerned, the school will be consulted about the possible placement and have the opportunity to make it clear if they need extra funding to ensure they can meet the requirements of the EHCP. If they're really unhappy about the placement they have the option of a formal complaint to the DfE and/or encouraging the parent to appeal to improve the EHCP and get extra provision written in.

Hi don't have much time to respond at the moment but will try to add more later. We have been in a similar situation so know exactly what you are going through, you are not alone!
My ds's school applied for high needs block funding which allowed him to have a 1:1 (for 2 terms) without a EHCP. Please post this on the SN board as there are plenty of wise parents who have been through similar and can provide excellent advice, I have found there support invaluable.

I agree that they cannot meet his needs. However, they can hold their hands up and admit it all they like- it will change absolutely nothing. What do you think happens? The LA swoop in brandishing magic wands and fix it all?

That does not happen. The school is left to manage as best they can for as long as they possibly can. That is why they are left feeling that they have no choice but to exclude, as it is the only think that will make the LA sit up and notice.

It has been said above that EHCPs are very difficult to get for 'behaviour'. This is true. I think it very unlikely that LA would agree to assess under SEMH for a pupil who had never been excluded- they would assume school were managing ok. So it's a Catch 22- no exclusions, no EHCP that would prevent exclusions. I'm NOT saying that is right before you all flame me, just saying that is how it is on the ground.

In fairness to the HT she is limited in her power to secure another placement for the child. She can exclude but all this would mean was that the child would be placed in another mainstream school within six weeks. When it happened to us we did point out to the LA that the assumption is the first school or teachers are inadequate but did not get very far.. Only when a child has failed at two (or more) schools do they seem to consider a special school placement. Even then unless the child has an EHCP then a special school is not a possibility. Our view is that if a child is permanently excluded from a primary school then they should at least be assessed for an EHCP and extra support be put in place before they are returned to mainstream education so they have a much better chance of succeeding at the new school. For ds1 he was given a new placement with less support than he had had in his original school and unsurprisingly the placement failed very, very quickly.

One option that the OP might want to consider given that an EHCP has now been applied for is to ask for an interim period of reduced hours whilst the assessment is taking place. It is not ideal and should definitely be a short term option but can be beneficial in some cases

Hi. Thanks again for the advice I really appreciate it. I know this may not be relevant but it does make me wonder. A friend of mine had a child in the same school as my ds. He was diagnosed with asd and had practically identical problems and issues as my ds. The only difference though is the school admitted they could not meet his needs and within two months my friends DS had a full time place in a specialist school. My friend cannot understand what the school are playing at as they never once excluded her DC despite the fact he was aggressive, violent, verbally abustive almost daily. They just told her straight they could not cope and the wheels were set in motion. I know he's a different child but he is very similar to my ds and of similar age. I'm just worried that they'll either exclude him permanently or they'll just continue to keep excluding him and sending him home every week. My son will not cope with that and if I'm being honest neither will I. Due to his last exclusion before Christmas by the time he goes back to school he'd have had almost a month off school and without sounding selfish it's been really hard. My own health is taking a serious knock as i literally never stop.

Ask the school op, if the cannot meet his needs, they have to take it back with the LEA, they are already excluding him on a regular basis. If they do end up permently excluding him, it is up to Lea to find a suitable placement. That could include a primary PRU for the interim.