Was this neglectful? Regarding DD's sleepover

[user1477282676]

DD is 8 and is good friends with a little girl 5 doors down. They don't attend the same school but over this year they've forged a lovely friendship.

This is Australia so 5 doors down is quite a distance compared to how it would be in the UK...all the houses on the street are detached and have very large gardens...we have no problem with DD running up the road to her mate's house to call for her and her friend does the same.

The issue is this. The street backs onto a large golf course...massive with a lot of old trees....the neighbours back garden, like ours...is backed onto the course.

Last night DD was asked to sleepover there and we agreed this was fine.

I spoke to her on the phone at about 8.00pm and she was happy, said goodnnight....she mentioned they were playing in the "den" in friend's back garden which is right by the back gate...the "den' is a broken down play house...wooden but not at all air or insect proof...there's a large hole on one side and it's usually mucky.

Anyway...about 11.00pm DH takes our dog for his evening walk...he goes all around the golf course and returns on a route taking him past the friend's back gate...he is about 50 feet from the house walking along when he hears this sad voice shouting "Mummy!" Mummy!" he realises it's DD!

He calls her name and she shouts "Daddy!" and he goes up to the den to see her...turns out they've been allowed to sleep out in this den...and the friend has gone into a deep sleep from which she can't be woken...DD is scared witless by the sounds of the wildlife...this area is full of wild animals...and she is too scared to go to the house to get her mate's Mother as the garden is so long and she'd been calling out for ages...

Is it a bit off to let two little girls sleep in a den like that...completely acessible from the golf course...very little protection from weather and out of earshot of the main house?

I might be being a bit precious so thought I'd ask. DH phoned the friend's mother whilst he stood there with DD and she laughed...she was in bed, asleep...he told her DD wanted to come home so he thought he'd let her know as the friend was now alone in the den...the mother just said "that's fine" and went!

DD was so relieved to be home!

[sixandoot]

Goodness, how terribly dramatic.
Wild animals on a golf course in a semi-rural urban area. How terrifying. What sorts of wild animals are they?-drop bears?
An 8yo, instead of walking to the house which presumably is well within sight and would take seconds to walk to, calls out for her mother even though as far as she's aware her mother wouldn't be near enough to hear her.
Father, after it's been dark for a couple of hours (is he a shift worker?), goes for a walk on the scary golf course that has lots of old trees and wild animals.
Meanwhile two children who are approximately primary school age and who are in a neighbourhood they're familiar with sleep in a cubbyhouse, that's probably similarly insectproof and airproof (why would a cubbyhouse be air proof?) as sleeping in a couple of swags in the back yard would be, in the back yard on a comfortably warm but not dangerously hot night with no rain and lots of moonlight.

[Natsku]

I think its more of a case of different styles of parenting with the issue being that the mother just assumed that OP's DD would be fine like her own DD apparently was (and sounds like she sleeps out there fairly regularly). The mother should have informed OP that they would be sleeping outside so OP could make her own decision on what is right for her child as parenting differences like that can be quite a big deal, as it was in this case.

[SoupDragon]

Personally, I don't think it was neglectful, I think it was ill thought out. Lots of children would havebeenfine with it, lots of parents would have been fine with it. The thing is that the othe parents should have checked with you first.

Oh, and of course you needed to point out that "5 doors down" didn't mean the same as it would in suburban England - I think a large number of posters would have imagined a scenario similar to their own environment which probably means suburban for the majority. 5 doors down from me is about a 30 second walk!

[SoupDragon]

instead of walking to the house which presumably is well within sight

In case you missed it in the OP "she is too scared to go to the house to get her mate's Mother as the garden is so long"

[InsultingTheAlligator]

DH is Australian and he thinks the parents were crazy.

Yes six wild animals - snakes, spiders for a start. Poisonous ones. DH tells me that 'cubby houses' are usually pretty open and ALWAYS have at the very least a lurking huntsman family. And snakes curl up in little nooks and crannies.

[InsultingTheAlligator]

And it is summer in Australia right now- lots of people go for late evening walks with the dogs. When it is cooler.

[rosegold33]

It's definitely neglectful.

For those who questioning wether a professional would deem it as neglect, in the event something went wrong then yes, in court of law this would be a case of neglect

[user1477282676]

Thank you all for your input. It was definitely a bit disturbing. But I now feel a bit paranod at all the posts...I hope the bloody DM don't get hold of this!

It's just their cup of tea! Shock horror....child left alone....who was in the right...

You know...

[SoupDragon]

For those who questioning wether a professional would deem it as neglect, in the event something went wrong then yes, in court of law this would be a case of neglect

And if nothing went wrong but someone reported it, would it be a case of neglect? No.

[Italiangreyhound]

sixandroot I've loved in Australia, it is full of things that can kill you. I am guessing you have been there too by the reference to drop bears. No way should children be left unsupervised like that at night.

I'd personally report the patents, anonymously if necessary. Let the authorities decide if it is safe. They sound like shit parents.

[Italiangreyhound]

lived not loved.

[Italiangreyhound]

Soupdragon So we don't recognise danger until it is too late!

Australia has a 'shared cultural experience' (for want of a better word) of children lost in the out back from the 'walkabout' film to the baby killed by a dingo. I am really surprised anyone thinks this is a safe place to leave children for the night. A garden backing onto a public space is not secure. The fact the dad could retrieve his own child means any one could take a child from there. Especially one in a deep sleep. Some parents should not be in charge of kids.

[TinselTwins]

I think the fact that so many people are afraid to give their kids freedom and confidence outdoors is very sad

Bollocks! 101 of having freedom and confidence outdoors is being properly equipt.

My kids have done plenty of very basic wild camping with us, lots of forraging and hiking, and "garden camping" with just their cousins.

This is not about the OP not being "outdoorsy" enough with her LO
There was no planning or care whatsoever in this impromptu "sleep-out"

[lizzieoak]

Icjump - a little late in replying, but yes, actual bears. Brown bears and grizzlies, but it's more often the cougars (mountain lions that attach).

I dropped my (tall) teenage son & a classmate off for camping last summer & refused to leave till more kids & an adult arrived. The other student (a girl) was mystified by my behaviour. Five minutes after I drove off I saw a large black bear at the side of the road. I found out the next day that the adult I left the kids with went home before the designated adult showed up - and she never came because she "couldn't find the campsite"! And it never dawned on her to call the school or other parents.

Other kids' parents can be boggling.

[Italiangreyhound]

Completely agree with Tinseltwins.

[mindthegap01]

I think it was neglectful. Your poor dd. I must admit that I got a warm fuzzy feeling when I read the bit where her daddy called her name. She must have been so relieved.

I would lose my shit with speak to the other parents, not least out of concern for their dd.

[claraschu]

TinselTwins I was reacting to the large number of posters who seemed to think that children sleeping out in a garden was incredibly dangerous (partly a reaction to a horrible but anomalous story of a child being kidnapped and murdered).

I just don't think sleeping out in a shack at the end of a large suburban garden is a dangerous thing to do. I think the bad thing about the OPs story was that the poor little girl got scared. As I said before, the friend's mum should have anticipated that this was quite likely to happen.

[876TaylorMade]

OP.

As Australia has a massive crystal meth problem I would not deem it fit to leave children to sleep in an unsecured backyard.

If your DH could so easily retrieve your DD imagine if it was someone else.

It is neglect. And it's something that should have been discussed with you beforehand to see if you were ok with it. I find Australians a bit blaśe about these things especially with crime.

[Italiangreyhound]

claraschu the garden was bit, not close to the house, not suburban by UK standards and accessible to a public space. It's not incredibly dangerous unless something serious happens, then it would be devastating. So it is risk management. Is it likely to happen, no, but if it did could it be hugely serious yes.

When we take risks with our kids it is not the same as taking risks with our own lives, we owe it to our children to do the best for them.

[Italiangreyhound]

big not bit!

[claraschu]

Yes I understand. I still think that it is easier to see the risk of letting children do adventurous things outside than to see the risk of not letting children do adventurous things outside.

[Pluto30]

Australia has a 'shared cultural experience' (for want of a better word) of children lost in the out back from the 'walkabout' film to the baby killed by a dingo.

But most of Australia doesn't have dingos.

876Taylor Our meth problem is really no worse than the drug problems faced in other countries.

Just playing the devil's advocate.

[Italiangreyhound]

claraschu OK, I'll bite, what is the ..." risk of not letting children do adventurous things outside." Obesity?

Pluto I don't mean they are all fearful of dingos, I was just told there is this real fear about being lost in the outback etc. Maybe because in Britain you cannot go for more than a few minutes (except in Wales or the peak district - I am really talking home counties here!) without encountering a village pub or post office or some form of life, we don't feel it here.

But in Oz, you can walk into the bush and apparently (and it seemed true when I was there) all the trees look alike and you can be lost very easily.

[Pluto30]

I don't mean they are all fearful of dingos, I was just told there is this real fear about being lost in the outback etc. Maybe because in Britain you cannot go for more than a few minutes (except in Wales or the peak district - I am really talking home counties here!) without encountering a village pub or post office or some form of life, we don't feel it here.

Which is true, but the majority of people live nowhere near outback. I know a lot of people who've never been to the outback. Where OP is suggesting her DD was staying would not be considered "outback". I live in a rural area and it's not "outback". There's bush and whatnot, but it tends to be tourists who get lost, not realising the density of bush here.

I just don't see that as a realistic fear in this particular situation.

[CheeseFiend36]

I really shuddered reading your OP, thank god your DH was walking past.

I'm not trying to be a troll, but did the mum come out or did she not? Your first post said this: - "DH phoned the friend's mother whilst he stood there with DD and she laughed...she was in bed, asleep...he told her DD wanted to come home so he thought he'd let her know as the friend was now alone in the den...the mother just said "that's fine" and went!"

But later on you said

"Just to clarify...DH stood by the den while he called the little girl's mum...he never left her alone!

He rang and rang and eventually the Mum picked up the phone. She came down....he just waited on the phone till he saw her coming out of the house.

He then put the phone down and said "We're off now then" "