To think 335,000 extra people coming to the UK in a year is too high

[jdoe8]

Where will they all live? What jobs will they all do? I know it may help GDP, but that is irrelevant as GDP per head is the important thing.

It does seem to be race to the bottom with more part time work , uber type work and the country is borrowing more and more and the national debt is 35k per head now.

Try doing this in the USA, the passport control is very strict and where you will be staying etc.

it's completely different there. Most people, including Americans, are expected to pay for their own housing. That's why you can't have immigrants coming in expecting to be housed easily. no one expects that.

We need to fix the underlying problem that people who work full time should normally be expected to pay their own way.

They should be ABLE to.

They should be ABLE to.

indeed. it's a vicious circle though. Once you have a system like housing benefit, it raises rents, which then requires more housing benefit. It will take a shock to change this expectation, and I think we are going to see it very soon.

I agree it is not just one issue and I think most people would say that on here

It is a ridiculous situation that so many people have to have top up benefits if you are working full time you should be able to manage all costs (providing you are not living well beyond your means) and have a reasonably comfortable lifestyle

FOM is not the cause of this issue but having the employment marked flooded with too many unskilled workers allows business to pay the minimum that they can. Stopping FOM isn't going to solve that problem its just one of the issues regarding low pay

The solution could be to limit entirely the unskilled component and ramp up the skilled and professional immigrants. This would have the two pronged solution of a higher tax take, as higher earners actually are net contributors over 35k and would lower higher salaries over time.
This has been evidenced among lower earners and would, perhaps level the playing field for the average worker.

Having a points system would help with that

it will not be perfect but if it was working towards that aim I think many people would be happy with that proposal

we simply couldn't do that if we remained in the EU (not saying that leaving is better for the UK)

if British people hv to have their low wages topped-up in the form of working tax credits, pension, HB, discounted CTax, then there is absolutely no reason to invite more workers from the EU able to do low-paid work only.

Exactly Southall

if British people hv to have their low wages topped-up in the form of working tax credits, pension, HB, discounted CTax, then there is absolutely no reason to invite more workers from the EU able to do low-paid work only.

but there is. Some industries will just not be viable at higher wages. We can say that's fine, but what happens to all those jobs then?

We don't allow children to sleep homeless on the streets in the UK, so if the occasional feckless person is going to be insane enough to arrive here with their children but without money or accommodation, a solution will be found. None of the alternatives are very edifying

no, but ''we'' allow injured ex-servicemen, teens thrown out of the care system, people who have lost their jobs and been evicted cos they cant pay rent etc etc to be homeless eh? half a million people.

and that's what these migrants like the romanioan man in the Hounslow programme did, they hold up their big brown eyed cherubs and that's how they get housing and all the rest.

makes me puke.

I have a disabled child and we get fuck all help. yes we have a roof over our heads, (eventually).but I was homeless for a while and know what its like.

But that's how it works becker. It's clearly what he was counting on.

Any business supported by a merry go round of tax credits is insolvent.
We cannot compete with 50p trainers made in China, that boat has long sailed.
These zombie businesses must be allowed to fail, they suck money which would otherwise flow into productive, innovative, high skilled industry. They are corpses on life support.
Food and farming is already well supported by govt grants, these clearly should remain. The cheap fruit picker scenario is clearly bogus.

It's just not right though. The people here already should be put first.

It does not matter what the hell it is filed as

Yes it does, Southall. We need the statistics. We know that the majority of EU nationals entering the country do not have pre-arranged work (statistics up-thread). AIBU to assume that this 'jobless majority' live in publicly funded accommodation?

Manumission, the consensus here (after lengthy debate!) is that you are correct, I ought not to muddle the 'social housing' issue - hence 'publicly funded accommodation.'

We need the statistics

OK. I am concerned that some people that I have met (on MN elsewhere and in RL) have argued that families such as the Romanian family are contributing. There are many such families across all the boroughs of London, they are not a fluke. And when I ask them HOW? they have no money, no job - so how? they get very annoyed - annoyed I think - because realisation hits their cosy notion that there is a fair system in Housing and no one can possibly get something 'just like that'.

They are not contributing, the people you meet who defend this have skin in the game. The faux altruistic intent is borne from their personal benefit of cheap labour, tenants for their properties or headcounts for their linked jobs.
Humans are self serving.

Some industries will just not be viable at higher wages. We can say that's fine, but what happens to all those jobs then?

Well we could just give them grants like farmers get. At the moment these come from the eu but once that is stopped it will be interesting to see what happens.
So if money is going to the farmers, perhaps it could go to fruit growers, fish preparation etc. Maybe just food producing industries?

It seems sometimes that whilst we have very strict animal rights in the UK food is imported from all over the world. Not sure if there is a level playing field on this.
Though it is partly wage costs as a local prawn packing factory flew the prawns to Thailand and back as it was cheaper than employing people to clean them here.

Free movement can only work between countries of a similar economic standard

And this is the crux of it.

Though it is partly wage costs as a local prawn packing factory flew the prawns to Thailand and back as it was cheaper than employing people to clean them here.

You're joking!?

Free movement can only work between countries of a similar economic standard

And this is the crux of it.

Formerbabe and Purple have better reasoning ability than our politicians.

Just a point on the arriving jobless - it is much easier to get a job when you are in a country, rather than applying from abroad. Few employers take speculative CVs from other countries, unless it is at a high level. I have worked in both low paid and professional capacities across Europe and only once did I move with a job offer already in hand (and it was only a short term contract). The % arriving without a job doesn't mean that they are not going to find one quickly or don't have the means to support themselves.

Also, regarding HB etc - I think the UK is one of the few countries where it is theoretically possible to get housing the minute you arrive. The EU FOM rules are for workers and and there is a period of grace (3 months) to find a job and you are not meant to be a burden on the state. It is entirely possible for the UK to tighten up their own rules to ensure only those able to support themselves come to the UK to work, without leaving the EU/EEA. For healthcare, there is also system whereby you have two years grace in the new country, based on your previous contributions in your EU country. When I moved to France, I could access health care based on the money I had contributed in the UK.

Many of the issues around FOM are in the UK's power to change.

Everyone I have ever met who has moved to the UK from another country is absolutely charming.

That said, the current net migration figures don't look very sustainable. The population of London alone goes up by c.100,000 every year (that is around 270 people every day).

Also I love our countryside and I worry about how long we will be able to call our island a green and pleasant land. Access to green space is hugely important for health. Fields that become development sites because of their proximity to other housing estates are often important amenities to dog walkers and families with young children. Population growth is a huge problem globally, not just here, and I think more needs to be done to tackle it if we are serious about climate change.

Regarding UK immigration, I think we should have a reciprocal arrangement. People can only gain permanent residency or citizenship if they come from a country that offers the same opportunities for British workers hoping to move there. Obviously that would not include refugees, but refugees make up a tiny percentage of immigration here at present. We also need to help developing economies actually develop their economies so that there are opportunities there. It is no good giving aid whilst preventing trade.

Free movement can only work between countries of a similar economic standard

And this is the crux of it.

You could say the same for the euro. How can it possibly work to have the same currency for an economy such as Greece or Southern Italy or even Spain as for Germany? Oh wait..... it doesn't, and hundreds of thousands of people are in horrible poverty as a result.

Looking at Brexit and the Italian vote yesterday and the horrifying rise of LePen and the equivalent in Germany, I do wonder what it is going to take to make the EU politicians realise that a lot of people are very very unhappy with their policies and ideals.

"Also I love our countryside and I worry about how long we will be able to call our island a green and pleasant land. "

THIS, WITH GREAT BIG DONGING BELLS ON IT.

have the means to support themselves

You are suggesting that they are arriving - from desperately poor countries - with the equivalent of thousands of pounds worth of savings.

Preposterous.