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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be horrified by the Stolen Children of England

999 replies

LivingOnTheDancefloor · 29/11/2016 22:30

I just watched a French documentary called "England's stolen children" and can't believe this is happening in England. Horrifying, scary, unbelievable, it is like a horror movie...

Basically, social services are taking babies from their parents based on suspicion that abuse might happen in the future, except that the decision is made based on ridiculous things.
A lady had her three children taken from her, including a breastfed baby because she went to the ER for a child's broken ankle and they judged that he must have been beaten by his parents (only based on the ankle). X years later the parents manage to prove the fracture was due to scorbut. And they found out the initial report from the ER says "no sign of fracture".
The judge admitted they shouldn't have taken the children and the parents were innocents. But the children were given to adoption so the parents will never see them again.
That is just one of the stories.
Some women are told while pregnant that their newborn will be taken as soon as he arrives (and thzney do it).
The documentary says it is due to the facts that counties have to reach a number of children given to adoption so they target poor/uneducated parents and find any reason to take their children.
And as fostering costs money to the state they prefer adoption.

AIBU to ask if you heard about it here in the UK? And if yes, what do you think? Could it be true or are they exagerating?

I am really shaken.

www.google.fr/amp/s/researchingreform.net/2016/11/14/englands-stolen-children-controversial-new-documentary-on-forced-adoption/amp/?client=safari

Sorry, no idea how to post links, and I am on my phone

OP posts:
Thisjustinno · 05/12/2016 07:13

AllPartOfThePlan Of course I think they can lie. But making something up entirely and not withdrawing that even when someone is having their children removed is seriously disturbed behaviour and that's a dangerous person.

I don't think there's that many of those kind of disturbed and dangerous people in teaching or social work. Some maybe but it's far more likely that someone has abused their children than been a victim of a disturbed individual who made something up and got everyone to believe them.

orangeterry · 05/12/2016 07:13

One thing that I can't get my head around is why do these women go on to have multiple children ?
Why put yourself through pregnancy and labour when they know the baby is going to get taken away at birth or in the very near future ?
why would you put yourself though that ?

Anniegetyourgun · 05/12/2016 07:25

OK, how many of these reports that you know of (there are at least five in one post) resulted in the children actually being taken away? You've mentioned one, which has obviously had a massive effect on your views, and no-one here is trying to claim mistakes never happen or professionals never lie. One is too many, true enough. But for the rest, it's SS checking up on something they've heard, and then doing - what? They don't know every parent in the area and can't know a child is not being abused unless they look into it. They most certainly don't look at every family just in case, so they'd have no prior knowledge of how good certain parents are. In acting on a report which may be malicious or misunderstanding, they have to check things out before they dare relax. This is a child's life they have in their hands. They can't just go "haven't heard of that family before, they must be fine, cba to follow that one up". Whenever there is a case of abuse or neglect, there is always a first time and they don't know this isn't it.

Oh, and do remember the press have a vested interest in sensationalising. Some of the ones you've read about (I'm betting the majority) may have been grossly exaggerated.

AllPartOfThePlan · 05/12/2016 07:31

No it doesn't. Using common sense and not automatically assuming every parent is neglectful or abusive would prevent those who maybe could do with a bit of help from hiding away in fear. When I had my youngest, partly through all this with my friends at the time, I am pretty sure I had pnd and there were a few really dark times, still are sometimes, but I was too scared to ask for help after seeing what happened to my friends. And when I took her for that tummy bug?? Checking over a mark and asking what it is is one thing, examining every mm of their body and blatantly accusing a mother of injuring her child with that disgusting look on his face and putting a big red mark on the screen which I saw flash up straight away the next time I went is something else entirely. I said to the next person I saw to look at that mark which was still there months later and take that report off because it's CLEARLY a birth mark as I told the first guy and she said she couldn't remove it, just put her opinion in her entry. That's there now, it won't go anywhere, it'll always be there, whenever I go in again I'll get the same looks, the same demands to strip her and examine every bit of her, till they scroll through everything and find that other note, all it needs is another 1 or 2 of those and that's it, "ding dong, hello this is a SW from the CP team, we need to discuss reports of abuse with you". Oh hell no. One night she came up with a terrible rash all over her body really suddenly, temperature went sky high, I rang 111 & was told to take her to A&E. I went, we sat there for 4 hours, on a Friday night surrounded by drunks in fights, eventually I made the decision that she was fine. If it was something serious like meningitis they'd have got her in straight away after her initial assessment, clearly they didn't think it was to leave us in the waiting room 4 hours, so we left and came home. I have never been so scared thinking a SW was going to march in and take her the next day demanding is endangered her and denied her medical treatment yadda yadda. This is no way to live! I should be able to make these decisions without being scared someone is going to take my child. I'm not going to read or respond any more because it's too upsetting, you don't get it, you don't want to get it and you never will till it happens to you, I've heard all the nasty replies before and honestly there's no point arguing with people who are so adamant in refusing to think anything wrong of SS despite the countless stories of failure. Baby P wasn't one GP missing one thing, it was a catologue of serious failings and downright stupidity over months and as a response they jump on every tiny thing every time from all angles and have families on CPPs for a fucking bruise on a knee and it's insane. It just makes normal fallible people scared and hide and real abusers hide it even better. I'm going now it's too upsetting.

haystack10 · 05/12/2016 07:35

To put it simply then---why are the parents who've seen the evidence of friends, living in fear. How come we can't think for ourselves and say "hang on, maybe they could have done this or that better?" If we could show the evidences of our friends, the country would be reeling. It was the worst reports by professionals I had ever seen. A private psychologist employed by my friend was concerned she was making complaints and said "don't push them into a corner with your evidence, I've seen what they can do" He was right, full care orders.

AllPartOfThePlan · 05/12/2016 07:39

Exactly Haystack. Almost word for word what they said to my friends. They tried to complain to the boss and the next boss and the next, all covered each other's backs and each complaint resulted in further reports and claims and sanctions and applications. It's vile the amount of untouchable power they have and what they can do with it if they decide they don't like you. Good luck with it! I hope somehow one day everyone can heal, I don't think anyone ever can from this though.

corythatwas · 05/12/2016 07:42

I lived for many years with that fear: first having been misdiagnosed as an abuser and then having dd's school call SS on us on several occasions. And I still cannot see how you can fail to take a sick child to the doctor and call yourself a responsible parent.

What mattered most- my risk of losing dd/going to jail, or dd's risk of losing her life? As a parent, how can there be more than one answer to that?

Yes, I felt like shit when I sat in A & E over the next 10 years. But I bloody well sat there because that was my job as a parent.

PoldarksBreeches · 05/12/2016 07:43

well look at the number that gat taken or put on plans each year. You SERIOUSLY believe there are THAT MANY genuinely abusive parents in the U.K. Who deserve to lose their kids

The vast majority of children on child protection or child in need plans don't come into care.
And as I'm a social worker I can well believe the numbers of children at risk, however most kids are not at risk due to outright abuse. It's usually emotional harm doe to witnessing DV or parent having MH or addition issues.

haystack10 · 05/12/2016 08:06

I'm sorry you're upset Allpart, I hope you'll be ok. I think we'll just have to accept that most people won't or can't believe it unless they witness it themselves. Anyway, I wouldn't want any other parent to witness it, it's too distressing and frightening. Look after yourself and children, wish you well. Cory, I think the difference is that although you were under suspicion and scared you didn't actually have false reports. Once you see those it is absolutely terrifying. I think that may be the difference and making some parents too afraid to ask for help. I wish you well too after everthing you went through. I'm leaving too now because I also find it too upsetting.

corythatwas · 05/12/2016 08:11

haystack10 Mon 05-Dec-16 08:06:37

"Cory, I think the difference is that although you were under suspicion and scared you didn't actually have false reports. Once you see those it is absolutely terrifying. I think that may be the difference and making some parents too afraid to ask for help."

Yes, we did. And my point is not that I was not afraid (I was bloody terrified!), but that I was more afraid of something going wrong with dd. That is the bit I don't understand. How can somebody not put that first?

WouldHave · 05/12/2016 08:23

Unfortunately I think the reaction we have seen from AllPart and Haystack is a direct consequence of the sort of scaremongering that Hemming and Josephs foster, ably assisted by sensationalist reporting in the tabloid press. It's really sad that AllPart is allowing her child's health to be compromised by virtue of her experience of one person's case and her perception of reports in the press.

The reality is that when anyone cites a case of miscarriage of justice, the same very few cases come up time and again: but the courts are dealing with these cases day after day, and the fact that the vast majority of cases go through without attracting publicity does rather suggest that they are simply doing their jobs properly.

For the other side of the coin, look at the case of the little girl who was taken into care at 6 months. Her parents fought tooth and nail to get her back, and ultimately did so, posing for pictures in the papers as the innocent parents lied about by professionals. And 11 months later that child died at the hands of her father, Ben Butler.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 05/12/2016 08:45

cory you seam to be ridgedly defending not running away to another country long after the discussion has moved away from anything to do with it.

It's been made quite clear that running away to a different country is a bad bad thing even if you really want to. It makes no sense to carry on setting the bar at running away or foster care when there are many other options inbetween at a point when unless ive missed something nobody has mentioned running away for pages.

HerRoyalFattyness · 05/12/2016 08:52

Another friend had a call from a SW after a trip to A&E because her toddler pulled some heavy books off a shelf and gave herself a big old nasty bump on her head. Another friend had a call because a neighbour reported that the kids cry a lot. Another had a call because her daughter was prone to a lot of bugs and had quite a bit of time off school

This is all standard procedure. You take a child to A and E with a serious injury then of course they're going to flag it. If they did nothing and the child was being abused then they'd have to live with that.
A report made to SS has to be investigated, so they can't be blamed for doing nothing when there is potentially a child at risk.
A school seeing a child constantly unwell and not turning up has a duty to report this as it could be a sign that the child is being neglected or physically abused and the parent is keeping them off while the bruises heal.
This all has to be flagged up. If it wasn't and something was going on then there'd be uproar that no one did anything.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 05/12/2016 08:53

wouldhave has she given any indication at all that her children have ever required medical attention and not recieved it?

We don't know that her children's health is or could be compromised in any way. Most responsible parents do not go running off to the GP unless they think something is serious or if it's something they do not know how to treat at home or identify and A&E is for serious urgent emergency type stuff.

I do not take my children to see medical professionals unless they either have a appointment for an ongoing issue or it is medically needed. This means one of mine has seen a medical professional every week of his life but another has not seen one for anything other than usual jabs and dental check ups. If she would go if it was needed them there is no compromise no matter why she has reservations

klassykringle · 05/12/2016 08:54

Yy Poldarks.

My mum was the "perfect mum" on the outside who destroyed me with her MH issues and led my dad to try to kill himself. Neighbours and friends and churchgoers wouldn't EVER have believed it.

I was small, terrified and a nervous bundle of fear. I was constantly getting stomach aches and going off school sick. I wonder if that would be flagged these days? It wasn't back then.

AllPartOfThePlan · 05/12/2016 09:11

Royal that's my point is that it shouldn't be flagged up every single tiny time. That doesn't stop kids being beaten, it stops the innocent scared parents taking them to get checked and makes the abusers hide even better and definitely not take them. Reporting constant sick days I can kind of understand but I don't think it should be an immediate report to the child snatchers! Our school asked for our GP details & (for some reason) a copy of medical history and a urine sample (which I was NOT happy about but the ex went ahead and did it despite my protests) so if they were concerned about a medical issue they have all the details there to be able to ring the GP and check if they've been in or get them to check on the family, not run straight to SS. Not with the power and overzealous intervention and plans they have now. The head I spoke to (with the family I know) said to me that it's no big deal, every single family in the school gets reported at some point, their guidelines are so detailed and they have a duty to report ever minor incident and every family gets reported by the end of school life. Well if that's the case then clearly it's a flawed ridiculous system! Plus this innocent family had their kids taken on this person's lies. A year later another kid in the school was killed by their violent abusive father. Clearly the system doesn't work when an innocent family is torn apart and a family with an unstable violent killer in it goes unnoticed.

And to those who keep harping on and on and on and on 🙄 about going to the GP, you sound unstable, I said very clearly I'd go if they were definitely very ill, if it was serious, but I no longer go just to check on a tummy bug that's hanging round longer than I'd like or every minor issue. Not if I'm going to get bloody red marks flagging up on the screen because some incompetent prick can't tell the difference between a birthmark and an injury caused by abuse.

Youreyouryouare · 05/12/2016 09:44

Yeah ok its the people who don't think the NHS, schools and Councils are on a mission to snatch children for purposes unknown who are unstable. Hmm

But of course, I'm Dolly Daydream for talking about actual instances of child abuse rather than paranoid ramblings...

NeedsAsockamnesty · 05/12/2016 09:47

The reality is that when anyone cites a case of miscarriage of justice, the same very few cases come up time and again: but the courts are dealing with these cases day after day, and the fact that the vast majority of cases go through without attracting publicity does rather suggest that they are simply doing their jobs properly

I am a bit of a fan of childrens services, I lurk on a lot of these threads challenging the whole baby snatcher thing I despise JH and his merry band of cheerleaders and I think they spout a huge amount of nonsence, I have previously spent a great deal of time working as a CP SW before I left the LA to go in a connected but different direction.

But I do think it is a little disturbing to say that because it's rare its not worthy of discussion.

I have over the years been horrified by behaviour of some professionals in the course of their jobs and I have also just been concerned . SW are just human beings like everybody else they all bring their own stuff into their practises and opinions and day to day work just like everybody else.
You get brilliant ones shockingly bad ones and every single thing in between just like all other people.

Ive sat in threshold meetings and questioned how a meeting a SW is referring to and an incident during it bares no resemblance to the very same meeting I attended (and unusually recorded with consent) ive had social workers sit at a desk and write up their notes with something like half an hour before they are needed and when they relate to incidents that happened and contacts that happened a year ago and the notes are not that great ive seen care order files that are in essence just the same report regurgitated over and over again making a file look huge.

Ive seen social workers from exactly the same team witness an event and view it totally differently (the one I'm thinking of was quite an extreme difference one was very possitive and one was incredibly negative) ive known SW who have refused to provide minutes within a timely fashion and who comunicate in ways that even other professionals cant work out.

Granted the overwhelming majority of SW that I have worked with over the years are mostly ok but the same as everything you do get shit ones.

It's all fine and well to say the court is there to protect us from miscarriages and all that jaz and on the whole they do well (I am a huge fan of the court system) but that process is not as straight forward as you would often think.

A,good example I can think of that is not unusual, familiy obtain a Solisitor because they are going through the court system, they never see the same one twice, the people that show up for court have not even had time to fully read the file and have little to no grasp of the real situation. The case I'm thinking of ended up in the judge making clear that the parent was correct the LA were not but by the time that happened the damage had already been done and a care order happened for a child that would not have been needed if the LA had not been so stuck on their original view point. The parent im thinking of after over a year of action was loving and able enough to realise that due to the agency failure one of the children's life situation had changed sufficiently enough to mean that should she keep fighting she would be doing damage so she stopped, she was hugely commended by the judge and was told that she had dealt with the situation in her childs best interests and that should the matter have been dealt with correctly by the LA initially then it would not have needed to happen.

Blind faith in a system IMO is not wise especially when the system that had been funding it has been made harder to access and budgets are more Important than the system itself.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 05/12/2016 09:51

youre

It's perfectly possible to think that there is no master plan to snatch kids for bizarre targets at the same time as knowing that the system is not all roses

Youreyouryouare · 05/12/2016 09:56

I know perfectly well its not all roses, thanks. I don't think anyone arguing against the child snatcher nonsense does.

AllPartOfThePlan · 05/12/2016 10:01

So it's the wording you don't like, not the argument. Well that makes all the difference then and perfectly justifies your comments! 🙄 These bastards destroyed a lot of people I love, it has had a ripple effect you would not imagine and it will continue to ripple for years and years and generations to come. Needs has stated some of the vile practices of some of these child snatchers and it's exactly what I saw when trying to help my friends and advocate for them. Haystack has seen the same, Cory argues old redundant points but has said some of the things I've also witnessed, but let's all ignore that because you don't like people who snatch children being called child snatchers. 🙄 I call them a hell of a lot worse than that irl.

corythatwas · 05/12/2016 10:09

NeedsAsockamnesty Mon 05-Dec-16 08:45:17
"cory you seam to be ridgedly defending not running away to another country long after the discussion has moved away from anything to do with it."

Not at all. My last posts were about whether having had a bad experience should put you off taking your child to A & E or not when there are concerns for their health, as that is what has been suggested by several posters in the last few pages.

Clue: I talk about sitting in A & E, not about taking ferries.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 05/12/2016 10:16

I obviously misunderstood cory possibly because the poster did state that she would take them if it was really needed.

Personally I think that's a far healthier attitude than the ones who go running there for things that do not warrant it.

corythatwas · 05/12/2016 10:22

Of course it's a healthier attitude, Needsock, if the decision was made with the child's medical needs in mind. But in that case, where would be the point of citing it as the negative effect fear of SS has on people? If it was positive, that wouldn't work as an example, would it?

It was only in her later posts that the poster back-tracked and said of course she would take them if needed. Which may well be true, but then it is no longer an example of what it was intended to be.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 05/12/2016 10:26

She did say unless it's serious or essential in the original post she made on the topic.

The reason is irrelevant if the child recieves all the medical attention they actually require.