AIBU to be horrified by the Stolen Children of England

[LivingOnTheDancefloor]

I just watched a French documentary called "England's stolen children" and can't believe this is happening in England. Horrifying, scary, unbelievable, it is like a horror movie...

Basically, social services are taking babies from their parents based on suspicion that abuse might happen in the future, except that the decision is made based on ridiculous things.
A lady had her three children taken from her, including a breastfed baby because she went to the ER for a child's broken ankle and they judged that he must have been beaten by his parents (only based on the ankle). X years later the parents manage to prove the fracture was due to scorbut. And they found out the initial report from the ER says "no sign of fracture".
The judge admitted they shouldn't have taken the children and the parents were innocents. But the children were given to adoption so the parents will never see them again.
That is just one of the stories.
Some women are told while pregnant that their newborn will be taken as soon as he arrives (and thzney do it).
The documentary says it is due to the facts that counties have to reach a number of children given to adoption so they target poor/uneducated parents and find any reason to take their children.
And as fostering costs money to the state they prefer adoption.

AIBU to ask if you heard about it here in the UK? And if yes, what do you think? Could it be true or are they exagerating?

I am really shaken.

www.google.fr/amp/s/researchingreform.net/2016/11/14/englands-stolen-children-controversial-new-documentary-on-forced-adoption/amp/?client=safari

Sorry, no idea how to post links, and I am on my phone

Cory let me spell this out to you because you've clearly got a bee in your bonnet about it. 🙄 Last week DD2 was ill. Just a rotten stinky cold, but her temperature went through the roof to 40.7. 😳 With DD1 I'd have at least rang 111 for that and taken her to the GP the next day, in fact with PFB it probably would have been A&E immediately. She has maybe a dozen times in over 2 years had the odd random bit of vaginal discharge in her nappy, no smell, no pain, no itchiness, only ever for 1 nappy at a time every few months, no regularly theme to it, DD1 would have been at the GP immediately the first time, I'm only just thinking I really should get it checked now because it does still happen occasionally. DD2 fell and landed on her nose on the side of a table the other week, nose bleeding, lots of tears, big old bruise across her nose, DD1 would have been straight down to A&E. All these things I've evaluated myself, looked up advice online, spoken to friends (one of whom is a retired GP, another is a nurse) and left it to see if it's a real emergency or if it's OK rather than take her straight away and risk intervention and accusations. In all instances she's been fine. The temperature came down, the nose wasn't broken because she grabbed and rubbed it soon after without howling, the discharge isn't some ongoing infection and probably linked to my hormones given that I'm still feeding her but it's happened enough times to get checked now. In any of these instances had the temperature stayed up or she had a convulsion of course I'd have gotten her checked, if the nose was still bleeding and very painful an hour after it happened of course we'd have gone to A&E, if the nappies was a regular thing or smelly or causing discomfort, an obvious infection, of course I'd take her straight away, but I'm not going to risk these things unless I have to. If she has anything serious then of course I'd take her, but I think about it very carefully now and think about how everything can be manipulated and twisted by a corrupt SW if they wanted to.

I've been through a false report and a law court failure. Granted its not in the UK but just like in the UK, all the professionals - social workers, doctors, lawyers, judges - are human beings, some good, some bad, some over zealous, some lax, some acting from bad intentions, most from good. So my experience is most likely very similar to others'

A doctor, a respected paediatrician, made a false report that I was being physically abusive to toddler DD, even saying that I had openly admitted it (the report was the idea of my ex and his parents, not sure if the doctor knew it was lies or just very gullible, inclined to believe the former though judging by his later actions) so SS told me I needed to take her to the doctor (same doctor, I didn't realise it was him at the time) he told me that DD has epilepsy and told me to take her to the hospital but added a secret note to the referral that it was for child abuse.

We went through 4 days of testing, including full MRI and a special kind of eye test that looks for signs of brain injury. I was of course terrified throughout. Wasn't allowed to take her out of the hospital, was questioned thoroughly several times by doctors. Ex's dad, once it was clear that the testing was showing no signs of abuse (no new or old injuries or anything like that) changed his accusation to sexual abuse so had to have DD stripped naked and examined, and later on had to take her to a different hospital for a sexual abuse examination where they take photos and everything. All through this I course knew I was innocent but was also terrified that if one doctor could make a false report, perhaps others could, but they didn't, because doctors and nurses in a hospital are under much more scrutiny than a private paediatrician.

By midday on the 4th day the hospital and the social workers were happy to discharge DD into my care and then I had the legal system failing, where a judge decided to issue an emergency order without bothering to contact either the social workers, or the hospital (so an example of a professional who just couldn't be arsed to do their job properly because it was Friday afternoon and he wanted to go home, that was literally his excuse) and I had DD taken away from me by my ex for two excruciating weeks. But the system still worked. Even though parts of it failed temporarily, the system as a whole worked, as the social workers called the judge and railed at him for not doing his job properly, the judge looked into the evidence and realised he made a mistake and the order was revoked and I got DD back.

It was traumatising, especially for DD, but I'd still rather the social workers took that initial report seriously than assume it wasn't real (they had an idea that it was something cooked up by my ex and his parents because they had been making reports for months about ridiculous things) because what if it was real and a child really was being hurt. And even putting aside the whole abuse accusations, what if DD really did have epilepsy but I refused to take her to the doctor out of fear of what might happen?

I strongly believe that every child should have at least yearly check ups, to help spot signs of abuse or neglect, as well as spot early symptoms of disease and illness. Precisely because some parents are afraid to take their children to the doctor out of fear of 'baby snatchers' so the chances of a medical issue being missed increases.

To be perfectly clear because I would rather nobody had the perception that I agree with or support in any way the evil child snatcher nonsense

My stance is I think it is ridiculous to believe an entire profesion and an entire system is always right that they never over react or under react that it is 100% full of people who always make certain that their own subjective views are not getting in the way of knowing what is adiquate or not and that the people within it are not human beings the same as every one else,

I also believe that if you place a human being in the type of situations that a SW will experance routinely with the lack of decent support decent funding very heavy work load then it can lead to anything none emergency being dropped often until it's to late and a certain outlook on life that creates challenges for service users and their children.

I also think that we have the rules we do for a very good reason and they should be followed all the time, I believe that not following them leads to failures to protect both from abusers and from staff and I believe that the power dynamics involved place the job at risk of being sought by people who are not suitable in the same way every single other job that involves levels of power does.

I do not believe anything even remotely close to anything JH would come out with but I do think shouting down or ridiculing people with concerns and turning it all back to the shite he pushes does hinder exploring the problems in the system and reassuring people about it.

natsku that sounds horrendous. It couldn't happen like that here - no judge could make an order unless children's services applied for the order and attended the hearing.

There are terrible social workers out there. I have met some who are judgemental, mean, lazy, timid, ineffectual. The safeguards should be a cohesive team, a strong manager with regular supervision and good communication with other agencies.
What happens in reality sometimes is that you have zero team cohesion, social workers working from home or scattered across hot desking hubs, not forming relationships with each other or discussing their cases. Managers are invisible, impossible to talk to regularly, miss supervision etc.
Systems can work very well. When there is a strong team identity, group supervision and co-working, poor social workers are both checked in poor practice and also get the opportunity to learn and develop from colleagues. If you have a manager who is on the ground with you and understands your cases thoroughly then they are able to question and challenge your thinking, rather than just take your word for it.
The failings of systems lead to poor social work practice being allowed to develop and good systems can go very far to protect families from the poor practice of a few.

It all comes down to staff shortages, poor morale and support, excessive caseloads. Money, basically.

It wasn't an order for child services to take DD, rather an order for DD's dad to take her as he got his lawyer to write an application saying that DD was in the hospital being treated for abuse and the judge didn't call to check if that was true or not. The social workers were shocked and very against the order and tried to find a way to combat it but by the time it had arrived the judge had left his office so it was too late.

poldark

The other parent can apply for an order, something I see a lot of are hostile situations between parents often one has a genuine issue but cannot obtain support because children's social care do not wish to get involved in what they percieve as just a low level custody dispute (not the correct term but it fits) and it usually results in the none problem parent being ignored in favour of the problem parent using the system to further abuse the ex and children.
Women's aid have been talking about it for years

What shocked me was the lack of evidence or proof needed on any side for anything. It was like watching Vicky pollard. It was literally "person x told person y who told person K who told person F and told person M who told person R that these parents have done this" and that was all they needed. They didn't bring in these people to clarify any of that or confirm it or deny it. They didn't allow the parents to bring those people in to confirm it or deny it. They didn't allow any written statements from them and they didn't allow any other witnesses who were present at these alleged events. It was literally 100% well they told the person who told that person who told me so that's why it's in my statement so it must be true look at my qualifications! That's not evidence! My friends even got some of those people to write letters and some other witnesses to write letters saying that this wasn't true and they weren't allowed in court! How is that fair? Every single time they made an application to court they did it at 4 o'clock on Friday afternoon for an emergency hearing at 9am Monday morning! How the hell are the parents supposed to fight that? And then you have the majority of sheeple Who are too bloody cowardly to stand up against this or sit there thinking well there is no smoke without fire the can't do anything without evidence! Yes they can. They really really can and it's terrifying.

Oh sorry nastku I misunderstood. Yes you're right that can happen here. That's very shoddy.

Allpartoftheplan - what I just don't understand is where on earth the parents lawyers were in the scenario you describe. It is unlawful.

Or had they got rid of their lawyers on the advice of Hemming and Co?

Of course evidence is required. If parents want to challenge evidence they must do so. Failure on either count would mean I appeal - so what were the lawyers DOING????

Royal that's my point is that it shouldn't be flagged up every single tiny time.
Of course it should. If it isn't and a child ends up seriously hurt, with mental health problems or dead then they have all failed that child. You're saying you'd rather this stuff went ignored because you're paranoid and convinced the government and child services want to steal your kids?

*allpart your friend's lawyer told them that they couldn't win? Then it's the lawyer that was incompetent, and the lawyer's fault as much as anyone's that they lost their children.

Of course there are SW and courts who make mistakes.

There are also parents with no insight into why their kids have been taken into care. One woman I know who claims her kids HT had a vendetta against her and lied to SS. This is simply not true, but this woman seems to believe it. Her kids were taken away for very good reasons.

I often tell people they can't win. Because they can't. Because they have neglected their children over many years, or abused drugs and alcohol over many years and it's too late now.

I say - of course I will fight for you if you want me to. But we are heading for a five day hearing. It's going to be hard. You are going to be asked a lot of really difficult questions. And it's very, very unlikely you will be going home with your children. What do you want to do?

A lot of parents do not want to put themselves through that. And if I didn't warn them, I would not only be incompetent, but frankly cruel.

Right spero, but you wouldn't tell the parents they will lose no matter what water tight evidence they supply. You will do your best for them and if You believe the evidence is flawed or dangerous you will fight for the courts to see that too.

When a social worker puts in a 69 page statement, 60 pages of that being out right total lies, backed up by statements from the school and the guardian, you can't argue every single point in that. There is no way you could go through 69 pages point by point and disprove every single tiny thing, you'd be there for a month! And when you're not even allowed to bring in all the witness statements or bring in the people who apparently have been quoted in this statement, when no actual names we're used to protect their identity, though it was pretty fucking obvious who they were talking about, what are they supposed to do? I was in the waiting room for the whole time, obviously I couldn't go into the court room, but listening to the barrister in the waiting room she seems to know her stuff, she seemed very good and my friend said she did ask some very good questions, but when the parents are denying that they did anything wrong when there are half a dozen professionals all saying that they did, and no one on earth defending the parents and standing up for them, no one allowed to give their witness statements, how on earth can any family fight that??? I think they were let down by their lawyer, I think their barrister tried her hardest, but I don't think their statements were great or any of the correspondence in the run-up to the final hearing, but when there are six people, all very well respected professionals, all saying they did something, and no one standing up and saying that they didn't, and of course they'd deny it whether they were innocent or guilty, what are they supposed to do?

How do you know they didn't do the thing that 6 professionals accused them of?
What did the children say about the allegations?

How depressing that this thread full of conspiracy theories is still going on.

Please, if you are reading it, don't be afraid that social services "will take your children away" for some minor infraction. They will try many interventions before it gets to that point.

The system has many checks and balances, including a Serious Case Review Boards who will investigate where it appears social services may have acted incorrectly or unlawfully.

It is pure conspiracy theory to believe that professionals across a range of fields would conspire together to lie out of vindictiveness against one family.

The children said the same thing, but they haven't done anything. And I know because I'm that close to them. I've been with them every step of the way and read all the statements and reports and documents I went to the meetings with them and I went to court and sat in the waiting room for them. I've known them my whole life. I know they didn't do it.

wouldhave has she given any indication at all that her children have ever required medical attention and not recieved it?

Well, yes. She's set out a long catalogue of instances when she would in other circumstances have taken her child to the doctors or A&E and hasn't done so. OK, in each case she says it turned out that they were self-resolving problems and that she would take them if they became something serious - but the problem is that if you wait to see whether a problem will resolve and leave it till it becomes serious, you can make it much harder to treat. It also has the ironic consequence that, when you do take the child, potentially you get flagged up as a neglectful parent.

But I do think it is a little disturbing to say that because it's rare its not worthy of discussion.

Do identify where I said that, Needsasock. I've repeatedly accepted, as have others, that the system isn't foolproof, primarily because that's impossible, and that mistakes happen. What worries me is the perception that they are much more common than they are to the extent that people can characterise SWs as child-snatchers.

Allpart, why were they taken away? What were the reasons given?

It begs belief that if 6 professionals and the children themselves say that something happened, that it didn't.

Rhiwrites, just open your mind for a moment and think the impossible. What if a group of professionals WOULD conspire against a family for some reason. What then, where does the family go? What does the family do? Bearing in mind that they are completely stunned and traumatised because they were fully expecting to give their side? Nothing is impossible, it's happened in known to be corrupt countries, why couldn't it happen here? Why are we so special?

OK, why would a group of professionals decide to conspire in such a way against an individual family?

you can be very close to a person, that doesn't mean you know what goes on behind closed doors. My best friend was physically and emotionally abused horribly by her stepmother until her father found out and left the woman. If you spoke to her stepmothers friends then they'd have you believe she was a wonderful saint. She has biological children who have no idea of what their mother is capable of. Yet to my friend she will always be the woman who tortured her.