To think this wasn't managed well

[Sallywebsterneedsyourvote]

Name changed.

I am part of a group, and we all have children via donor conception. Some opted for this due to health concerns but of course a few are single women or same sex couples.

A good friend's son (age 14) was in an RE lesson where the teacher decided to have a debate on the ethics of this practice. This meant the poor boy had to sit for an hour listening to his classmates state what awful,
selfish people would do this

AIBU to think this was really poorly handled?

LRD, with respect it isn't, or at least not in the way we're talking about here. It's someone who is active and sometimes involved in the child's life and not anonymous.

But I can see you've taken an apparent dislike to me (not sure why) so perhaps we are best agreeing to disagree rather than one party pulling pained faces at the others' stupidity.

OP, I really don't think it is a good idea to steer clear of sensitive topics just in case someone has been involved in a situation to which that topic is relevant.

Agreed-how would you ever discuss anything? It would be impossible to choose something that absolutely no one could possibly have been affected by. The key thing is keeping it an academic discussion around the ethics rather than letting it get personal.

Goodness, of course I don't dislike you!

I've no idea what I've said to come across that way at all.

A friend of mine had a baby with her (female) partner and a man who is a friend of theirs, who's involved in the child's life. She (and I) would still refer to that as a donation. So that was what I was thinking about.

I can understand there many be some same-sex couples, where the mums have their names on the birth certificate, but the sperm-dad don't know what else you'd say) is still seen as a third parent. I hope I didn't offend you if that's your situation.

The only reason I raised it was because you were saying it was better to keep these things secret - and I wanted to point out that, obviously, for many same-sex couples, it will be immediately obvious that a donor was involved in conception. There isn't an option to be secretive or 'private'.

There would be very few circumstances in which a lesbian couple's child's active biological father (there's a sentence ) would NOT be referred to as a donor. And tbh the only one I can think of is the kind of scenario that doesn't really exist outside of men's wank fantasies.

This is part of the GCSE RE curriculumn. The pupils at the school I teach in would be outraged that it someone might call assisted conception 'imoral'. We have children from all back grounds pass through our gates and they are much more intune with moral issues that people give them credit for. I would be very surprised if the RE teacher didnt provide a counter argument to anyone who argued that it was wrong.

Yes possibly but this was referring to donations given anonymously in a clinic.

Anyway bigger fish to fry and all that.

But OP, any class discussion has the potential to generate strong feelings like this. That's what makes them worth having! The kid will have to accept the possible disapproval of others, just as he will have to do many times in adult life.

sally, I'm utterly confused and I really don't see what I've said to upset you.

Does it matter if it was referring to anonymous clinic donors?

All my point was, was that for many children, it is not possible or sane to try to keep secret that your parents had you via a donor. Increasingly, it is becoming reasonably common - such that you'd expect a teacher might anticipate the possibility of their being such a child in their class.

Same with abortion, same with homosexuality, etc. etc.

If teachers can't manage these discussions so they don't upset those children, I think they are doing something wrong - and I think you are coming at this from a similar feeling that it's important the children not be upset, so we needn't be up in arms with each other?

LRD

You have tried to shut me down by insinuating I am exaggerating wildly )"come on, really?")

You have implied that I am talking nonsense ("if you say so")

You have implied multiple times you are speaking to an idiot ("Um ... yes")

I don't mind disagreement and argy bargy but I've got better things to do than discuss matters with someone who pulls faces at me to share their bemusement at the idiotic woman posting.

I really didn't intend any of that to come across as it did to you, and I'm so sorry.

I'm asking about it - and I was trying to convey this, with the qualifications and emoticons, that I wasn't sure and didn't have the experience you do - because I wanted to understand. My DP is just shy of five months pregnant with our baby, who obviously is conceived from donor sperm, and I was really hoping you'd talk more about why you see it as taboo, so I could prepare better. And yes, sure, I was hoping it wasn't true it is taboo to everyone, but it certainly wasn't intended to make you feel doubted in what you experienced.

Gosh you're prickly.

Tbh you've been quite offensive about the whole donor issue, you obviously have some deep seated issues about your own situation and seem to want to extrapolate that to every mother/couple who have used a donor.

It's not a dirty little secret and neither should it be.

Well, that's really lovely and gracious of you and thank you. Now you've shared that I am reading your posts in an entirely different light.

That was to the OP btw, not you LRD (x post)@

Obviously, a cross post!

I'm really not prickly or defensive.

It absolutely isn't a dirty little secret.

But nor is it my "business" in a sense, it's my child's. I do think it's taboo to a point, perhaps more for single people as people will hesitate away from saying anything that makes them sound homophobic (sometimes!)

It would be worth feeding back that in a class debate on any topic, people in the room may be affected by the issue personally and not wish to share. For lots of teen debate topics - abortion, abuse, drugs - it's very likely someone has a personal or family experience that they haven't shared with their friends or teacher.

Strong views are OK - letting a debate turn into a pile on is not. You could ask for it to be fed back to the teacher to think about how to chair more effectively so the debate remained balanced and properly argued - perhaps also reminding the students that fellow students in the room might be personally affected by the issues.

Phew!

I'm really sorry I upset you. I can imagine it's one of those situations where you're just feeling stressed and defensive, and I can understand that.

I try to joke about bits of it because it's in my nature - but also, I had a grin emoticon on one post because it reminded me of a conversation DP and I had with a friend of ours when DP had just got pregnant. Friend (who is lovely) is considering having a child as a single woman, with donor sperm. She said really seriously 'so, do you think you'll tell your child it's not biologically both of yours?'

We cracked up and it took her a second to realise, yes, the child would probably figure it out!

:) It's a tricky one!

You will (probably already have) get the DQs (Daft Questions) and people do phrase things in a way that don't mean to be offensive but are.

I find people get very screamy about the possibility of incest - it doesn't matter how many times you point out it happens more on an average estate they still get most po-faced and disapproving - and also people confuse a donor with a parent.

I probably am prickly about this but I'm not about most things, honest!

I think these topics do need to be discussed on schools but obviously in a managed way.

Let's not forget that people are still telling children that in order to have s child you have to be married.

Now fair enough if you would prefer to be married. However to state it as fact is totally wrong.
You may as well insist that the moon is made of cheese.
Not every child has parents who can intelligently debate issues.

Gosh - I've not even thought about incest. It seems quite a remote chance, though, TBH, I agree.

I'm probably a bit prickly too, my eldest wasn't donor conceived but ONS conceived and we have no idea who or where his bio father is. I've probably faced as much judgement for that, if not more. He's a teenager now and I'm quite hardened to it. There's nothing, absolutely nothing wrong or selfish with choosing to have a baby on your own, or using a donor because you're both female, or your child not knowing its bio father. I suppose I just wish everybody would shout about it and normalise it.

I am surprised that an entire class of teenagers was so against this. Just asked (my admittedly small selection of 3 teenagers age 18 16 and 15) and they are all like..

Shrugs I dont have a problem with it.

I really expect all of their friends to feel that way too. I find teenagers very open minded.

Does RE teacher know this is sensitive to a child in the class? As if not he may not have realised that this could be sensitive to some one.

In a way I think it is positive that it has been debated. Just hope that teacher was arguing in favour.

Just hope that teacher was arguing in favour.

I really hope she wasn't. That's not the role of the teacher in a debate like this. They should be an impartial moderator drawing out the issues on both sides.

I find it very hard to believe that an entire class thought this was awful and selfish.
Maybe the boy only took on board the negative comments.
I think it's good that discussions about these kinds of issues are debated in school.

I teach teenagers and am often surprised at how socially conservative they are. We were discussing a situation in a text WRT whether it was rape (GCSE class in English Lit) and some of the beliefs on display were genuinely shocking - I had girls commenting to the effect that a woman who had previously prostituted herself might not have been raped (basically the 'some girls rape easy' fallacy). But do you know what? Teasing out their assumptions and encouraging them to question them, to consider the implications of what they were actually saying, was such a valuable exercise. Without telling them what to think, I was able to help them to challenge their own thinking and realise that they didn't really believe a prostitute could not be raped. They were, rather, struggling with the idea of how a prostitute might prove someone had raped her.

So for me, it really is essential that these topics are covered in schools, even when they are challenging.

Teenagers usually have very ilimited life experience and are generally ignorant of facts regarding this type of topic. They can be very black and white (man & woman, sex = baby) They were asked to think of arguments for and against and they did this. The teacher should have discussed all arguments for/ against with the class during the lesson. Not everyone agrees with egg/sperm donation, fertility treatment etc. so the debate won't always be in your DC's favour. The teacher should have put every argument for/ against into context with the group.