AIBU to think Political Correctness never actually went too far?

[Lessthanaballpark]

AIBU to think that as soon as Political correctness actually started to gain any traction there was a backlash against it that dampened its effect from the outset?

That as soon as the idea that people should check themselves before expressing any racist, sexist or disablist opinion an equally powerful feeling of resentment emerged to counter it and frame those do-gooders as hysterical feminazi killjoys (if female)/manginas(if male)?

That from the moment that women's rights started to have any effect on society, cries of "pussification" and "political correctness gone too far" erupted before anything actually had a chance to "go too far"? That from the privileged viewpoint of someone who is used to seeing themselves reflected in the media, sport and politics, any step towards including other groups feels like a step too far.

That it is far far far more common to hear people saying "well I know this is politically incorrect but I'm going to say it anyway" than it is for people to actually chide others for being politically incorrect.

And that this nostalgia for a time before political correctness existed incorrectly assumes that we have already reached racial/sexual equality and have gone beyond it when really we are only half way there?

I read a lot that it's no one'S responsibility to educate anyone else. I do agree with that, but equally if someone has made a statement with no ill intent, surely the best thing to do is to use that situation to educate?

In some parts of the UK the term 'Coloured' is still being used, and used by teenagers.

It has lead to some interesting discussions including not meaning anything wrong and some people self identifying.

I usually leave it as having given the argument that not everyone who is not white is the same, that the 'P' word is used elsewhere with no intention to hurt/and people use to self identify and that while their friends and family may not mean any harm when they get to university or in the work place they will be judged and may well be put on a disciplinary if they don't change their language. With a short clip of Trevor Noah explaining about the term and its use in South Africa.

Alternatively if you drive 30 mins in the opposite direction there are other teenagers who are desperate not to use racist language which has lead to other interesting conversations.

Conversations such as when I had mendhi whether it was racist to say it looked better on white skin, or when half the class practically fainted as a particularly good looking teenager walked by it was racist to say 'mixed race people are better looking'.

The second example ended as 'People who are mixed race often seem have the most attractive features of both parents"

I can't see how anyone could feel offended or insulted at being called a 'lefty' or a 'women's libber', Gotta. Surely if you sway towards the left in politics, that's what you believe in, and you are proud of your beliefs? Same if you are a women's libber you are championing the rights of women, so why feel offended if someone chooses to describe you as one

And I don't feel offended, nor should anyone, as you quite rightly say. My point was the right wing supporters spit those terms out as if they are an insult.

Seems like not many people on this thread read the recent one about Black Steve.

Goady thread designed to get people who have experienced something to say so and be shouted down.

I expect that whoever gave an example of "PC gone too far" in their opinion would be shouted down as a racist/sexist. I really don't think this thread is one for open discussion. I may be wrong I'll watch and see if it happens that a post with an example remains unchallenged.

Do Muslim faith schools get marked down by OFSTED for not being 'white enough' then too?

I haven't shouted anyone down. I have pointed out where examples given are either myth or misunderstandings. Which, for example the "too white" school was.

BadKnee- do you have an example you'd like to talk about?

I dont think PC is given much of a chance to go too far, because the average person is able to recognise where the boundary of 'too far' is.
PC started becasue people objected to behaviour that was objectionable. Its easy to lose sight of how bad things were in the 1970's. They did need to change. People who have power dont give it up lightly or willingly. Thats not difficult to understand.

Most people want a fair society. Most people are reasonable, given the chance. People that arent or dont are in the minority.

As I said it is a thread designed to be goady. I doubt much interesting debate will come out of it - and indeed it hasn't so far.

(I already know that your "do you have an example?" question was not a genuine question - the subtext is that I must be in favour of the OP and dying to give my examples which will "prove" just how *ist I am. Not the case in fact)

If there was a real discussion on free speech, hate speech, equality etc it might be a valuable thread but so far it hasn't been. Nothing new here.

Sorry If I am going off topic here, but a political correctness debate seems like the right place to bring this up. Please dont flame me, because I am genuinely confused about this.

Has anybody seen the safety pin campaign doing the rounds? The idea is (if I understand correctly) that you wear a safety pin to signal that you are a "safe" person who will "love and protect" minority groups, such as, black people (latino's in the US), muslims, lgbt people etc etc....

It seems to be mainly white liberal non minority groups wearing this symbol as a gesture. I am white, and I dont know if anyone else agrees with me, but I am incredibly uncomfortable with the idea of wearing a symbol (however well intentioned) that imho potentiallynpatronises minority groups, with the assumption that somehow as a white straight person, they need to be protected by me and seek out a safe space with me and to presume that as a minority group they are unable to advocate for themselves, and somehow need me (a straight, white, atheist who has never experienced the isssues they face) to speak for them.

I dont know, it just worries me that people wearing this pin are really missing the point here and unintentional (or deliberate) virtue signalling to assuage their own guilt, with no real discernible benefits to the minority community except to basically 'other' them in a patronising manner.

I feel that whilst political correctness is very important and has been helpful in many ways, it does as evidenced by the above (imho), run the very real risk of actually patronising the very people it is said (usually by non minorities) to 'protect'.

I guess its contentious, but It just feels

wrong to me, I would be interested to hear from anyone who considers themselves a minority on their thoughts on this.

Hope I havent offended anyone, as that isnt my intention, I am just genuinely concerned that well meant gestures such as these come with their very own dangers.

Sorry... should have said "long post alert"

To summarise, it kind of feels like white/non minority people are calling the shots and making decisions on behalf of minorities as to what they 'need' without engaging in dialogue and just asking the question first.

Actually, I disagree. I think its incredibly important that people realize that most of the examples of "political correctness going too far" they are told about are bogus. Because if they think they are real they would actually have very good reason to be pissed off about society having to change to accommodate incomers. The "too English" school one is a perfect example. It it were true, it would be outrageous. As would all the "Christmas is banned" ones. The sort of thing that Britain First spread round Facebook. So the more light that can be shed the better. There are loads of things that become part of our mental furniture if we hear them often enough and have't got time to dig a little deeper. And it all adds into a culture of low level suspicion and unhappiness that permeates our feelings about incomers and minorities. I remember my mil, who is the kindest woman alive, saying that Bradford Council had banned Christmas lights while standing under Christmas lights in Bradford. She had read somewhere that they were banned so assumed the lights she was standing under were for some other, non Christmas festival........

Here is an example of the safety pin that I have been seeing...

And another...

Hmm. I'm not sure about the safety pin thing. But if I wore one, I think what I would be saying is, not that the person needs to be protected and looked after, but that lots of people who look like me are saying and doing crap things-you don't have to worry about me doing that. If you would like to sit next to someone you can be sure isn't going to abuse you then you can sit next to me.

BadKnee
Goady thread designed to get people who have experienced something to say so and be shouted down.

As the OP who "designed" the thread I take offence! My goals are only ever discussion not hatred.

I do see both sides of the argument. Some examples given up thread I agree with and having been called racist in the past I know how horrid it feels to be misaccused and to be worried about potentially offending people.

I'm simply positing the idea that the outcry against PCness, feminism, liberalism etc is often out of proportion to those things themselves and the prevalence they have in our society.

That safety pin thing is cringey

OP - then I apologise. I misjudged your motives.

I am only interested in discussion too. I would like a discussion on whether it is generally right to humiliate people and treat them unfairly whatever community they belong to or associate with. I would like to see a discussion of who determines what is offensive and what the punishments are, (it is not always the law of the land).

The badge thing assumes that all members of those "communities" - which seems to be everyone EXCEPT white men and boys - is likely to be a victim, (by implication OF white men). It also assumes the wearer is safe. So if a white man wears it in order to make a young girl feel safe??? And yet he isn't safe at all??

Think it through. I would be more likely to avoid someone who had a badge like that if I felt myself to be in danger. And I'd certainly tell my kids to do the same.

It is simplistic at the very least.

BadKnee- as I said, I'm not sure about the pin thing either. But it doesn't seem to me to be about making people victims- it's more about showing that you're an ally- if you see what I mean.

I don't quite understand your first paragraph-could you say more?

BertrandRussell

The badge thing says everyone is a potential victim, (except white men who are, it is implied the likely aggressors), and that anyone who wears it is safe.

You say it says I am an ally - but of whom?
I am not an automatic ally of gays/lesbians/blacks/women/trans/muslims - etc. I ally myself with people who need help, who are good people, who are weak and being treated unfairly. (I note the elderly are not included on the badge and yet they are a really vulnerable group, most likely to be a victim of scammers and burglars and more likely than any other group to need a seat or help in public).

I choose my allies. I support all sorts of people who need help. I do not exclude a group because of their colour , age or sex.

OK sorry- you asked about my first para.

What I would be interested to see is a debate about who deems something offensive. The offended person or group? Others on their behalf? The Law? - And who then determines whether that should be acceptable in mainstream culture. And who applies the sanctions? Is mob rule/trial by Facebook acceptable? Should people lose jobs or reputation as a result of being "...ist"? Most bodies now will bow to the power of the media because they just cannot afford not to.

I am sure that if I publicly said something racist/sexist/disablist that caught the eye of the media my main client company would stop using me. Even if it was said in private and recorded/released on youtube or something. They would have to - or find themselves boycotted. They couldn't afford to keep me.

I'd lose my job, my work, my reputation. Yet would have been convicted of nothing. My kids would be vilified in school.

I am not going to say anything, and still I find myself having to say "I am NOT..... ist" because we almost live in a society in which unless we publicly denounce we are deemed to be a racist/fascist/witch.

.

As I said, I have my doubts about the safety pin thing. But just as a passing thought, white men are less likely to be victims of street harassment than any other group, surely? I don't think the pin suggests that they are more likely to be harassers, thought. Many of the people caught on video in the current publicity about racial harassment have been women.

Iam sure that if I publicly said something racist/sexist/disablist that caught the eye of the media my main client company would stop using me
I would hope they would! Isn't that a good thing?

No- it is not a good thing. Because who determines what is racist/sexist/disablist? That is the problem. And the consequences for saying something that someone else considers offensive are too extreme. There is a law. Use that.

Imagine if you said something, (for example the sentence above Many of the people caught on video in the current publicity about racial harassment have been women. could, if taken in isolation and out of context be interpreted to be anti-women.) and it was tweeted and retweeted and facebooked and got back to your employer who decided that in your role as.... it was inappropriate. WE know that you are not sexist. You know that you are not sexist. BUT....

You would approve of someone losing their livelihood. You would think it a good thing for them to go under financially. For their kids to suffer. For their kids to be vilified. That is part of my point.

I will fight racism and sexism and injustice every step of the way but I am not seeing real fighting or anyone actually giving up anything they have in the interests of others.

Anyway - getting off topic and I really have to go.

Sorry OP for hijacking the thread. Thank you Bertrand for your discussion.

Ah. You have to go. So you haven't got time to say what you mean by "real" racism and sexism?

During WW2, Jews would wear a safety pin inside their lapel, and if they opened it and pointed it at someone it meant their mouth was open - they were an informer. A closed pin meant they were safe.
I havent seen anyone do it. It seems to be like the 'I'll ride with you' campaign in Australia. But anyone can wear a safety pin. I dont think it wil catch on, actions speak louder than words.