Father in law and physical abuse, Aibu?

[Nord]

FIL was a violent man and physically abusive towards DH as a child.

He was also emotionally abusive towards DH's mother. She subsequently left him, had a breakdown and neglected DH and his siblings.

DH is now close to his mother and siblings. His father found God and has worked hard to become a better person apparently. DH and him speak and see each other. I've met FIL a few times but he and his wife live far away from us.

DH had been really suffering with his mental health lately due to the past and the more he tells me the more furious I get at FIL.

Aibu to refuse to see FIL or let my DC see him? DH had seemingly forgiven him.

Ooh this is a tricky situation. I'm with you Nord - DH is struggling with mental health issues because of the trauma caused to him by his father when he was a child. Those feelings can last to a greater or lesser extent a whole lifetime and this must affect you too, and so it is small wonder you feel angry with FIL. Therapy is painful and it's a shame DH didn't continue - maybe he'll pick it up again in the future. However understandable as it is, he also has to cope with his mother's abandonment of him as a child so there's a whole load of buried trauma there and this IS going to affect you, in terms of seeing DH try to deal with all this stuff and the repercussions on you. There is also the issue of DH as a father to your children. Some parents do I'm afraid repeat the way they were parented, whereas others will go the opposite way and make sure they are good nurturing parents.

Seems like you are ok about MIL - but I agree I'd not want FIL and his wife anywhere near me or my children, God or no God. Sounds like new wife is trying to make it all right for her man - well she can't undo the past can she. When you say the christmas visit has been arranged/requested by new wife, what do you mean exactly, that they have invited themselves? What does DH want. I think new wife is trying to show FIL that she can bring about forgiveness and all that crap. Sorry I know there's a lot of sense in forgiving but it takes us all in different ways, and it sounds like DH is not having contact with his father after the therapy brought up painful memories. If that's the case, then why are you allowing them to come.

Say NO - Thank you but NO.

Oh gosh, I don't know.

So... if DH wants FIL to see his children you shouldn't say categorically no. DH does have the same rights you have.

But you can specify that this is only allowed to happen with you and an other adult (who isn't FIL's wife) present.

The impact of FIL behaviour is ongoing.
That cannot be denied.
The OP has to deal with her DH issues
Personally I would never trust someone who physically abused a child

.
In my opinion the in laws are still abusive if Nord feels they dislike her .
Non abusive people welcome everyone even if they have different religious views.
Bullies seldom change from being bullies, they just change methods. If they can no longer hit out they use mental pressure. Or try to.

Nord, if your DH wants to meet up and feels it would do him good then grit your teeth, go along but keep it short.
You go to support your DH if thats what he wants, not step MIL not what FiL wants but your DH

You and your children owe these people nothing.

Nord I am so sorry your FIL was a violent abusive towards man towards your DH as a child. It is terrible that his actions caused so much hurt for your dh and his family.

I am glad your DH is now close to his mother and siblings.

As a Christian I am happy too that his father has found God and has worked hard to become a better person apparently. I wonder how you know all this, is it from your FIL via your dh or from independant report? Both the faith and the changed behaviour.

Re "DH had been really suffering with his mental health lately due to the past and the more he tells me the more furious I get at FIL."

It's totally reasonable for you to be angry with this man for the hurt he has caused your dh and by extension to your family.

RE "Aibu to refuse to see FIL or let my DC see him? DH had seemingly forgiven him." No, you are not wrong to do so. It is not an offense against you for you to forgive. If your dh chooses, once he has fully worked through all this, to forgive his father, you can choose to support him in this.

As far as I am concerned none of this means that you should feel you must meet this man or spend time with him or allow your children to be in his company. As others have said you must never let him be alone with them. And that does really mean you need to be with them when/if they see your FIL because otherwise you will place that 'burden' on your dh and I would personally feel that he will be dealing with enough coping with his own emotions.

Trifleorbust "...whether she should completely disregard her DH's clear wish to put it behind them" I don't see he has expressed that at all. In fact he is still being 'tortured'by the past so it is not behind him.

"I think that is unreasonable because she isn't worried he is a risk, she is just angry. It's not her place."

She may be at emotional risk, as may her dh and her children. And it totally is her place to care about her dh.

and

"But the OP clearly says her FIL doesn't behave like that anymore"

I am afraid the OP herself does not necessarily know how the FIL behaves. I doubt those outside the family knew what was going on when the FIL was being abusive to his family. It may be the FIL is not doing this now as the children are all grown up and his ex wife and he are divorced.

Or he may well have changed.

But even if he has stopped doing the cruel things he did in the past, it does not mean that those things done in the past are 'gone'! Those things have affected the OP's Dh and so are not gone and past.

There is a consequence for our actions and we pay that price for things we do.

As a Christian I do believe in forgiveness, and it is good to relieve ourselves of that burden to go on hating someone but even if we forgive someone it does not require us to have a relationship with them or put ourselves in the position of being hurt by them again.

Nord re "He's never met our newborn son but that is mainly because of the distance. I'm dreading Christmas as this is when we're due to see him and his wife, who both seem to dislike me, I'm assuming because I don't share their faith..."

Why are you seeing him at Christmas. I am afraid this is a very bad idea. Why are you planning this. IF you decide to meet him and let him meet your kids it should not be at Christmas because:
Christmas is a fun time for family and children not for sorting out very long age-old family issues and conflicts (IMHO)
You should be enjoying your new baby's first Christmas without this stress and drama
Your FIl can get to pretend he is a regular granddad meeting a new grandchild, but he is not! He has caused massive suffering and this cannot be swept under the carpet.

I am assuming your dh is seeing a counseller, please ask them if meeting the FIL at the most pressured, stressful, commercialized time of year is wise, (answer - it is not!) IMHO.

Well said pp.

Forgiveness is not for the benefit of the perpetrator, but for the benefit of the victim; a way of being able to let go of the past and the bitterness that could overwhelm them. It is a form of self-protection. It in no way absolves the perpetrator. Or to put it another way - "DH had seemingly forgiven him" does not mean you have to have a relationship with FIL on FIL's terms. He is not off the hook.

"I'm dreading Christmas as this is when we're due to see him and his wife, who both seem to dislike me"
"The Christmas visit has been arranged/requested by DH's step mother."
You don't have to visit them or have them visit you. Frankly it doesn't sound as if your husband is currently well enough to cope with such a thing. Forgiving his father does not mean he can have a relationship with him right now. Maybe in the future, but now? Not really.

I'd cancel the visit. If they balk at that, tell them it is their penance for past sins. Let's see them wriggle out of that one.

Not RTFT but it's your husband's choice if HE wants to bother with his father. That doesn't mean you have to talk to him, have him over for christmas etc, and it certainly doesn't mean you have to allow him to take the kids to meet him. The children are yours too and if you say no to contact, then that means no. Stand your ground OP. FIL sounds a right dick.

How convenient that FIL has found God and expects everyone to forgive and forget. Nope. It doesn't work like that. Hiding behind religion does not give you a clean slate to start again. Abusers do not change. I would drop FIL and his wife. Tell them to forget Christmas. They should be too busy in church asking forgiveness for their sins to spend time tormenting with you.

Trifleorbust I am sorry about your situation and glad you and your mum have resumed a relationship ( or however you would phrase it).

Nord if your FIL has really found faith he should not be judging you for not sharing his religion. He really should not. That is a sign his faith is not very deep (to me). So "The Christmas visit has been arranged/requested by DH's step mother." why is she 'pushing' for a Christmas meeting.

Does she want to play happy families?

I think meeting in this way, at such a pressure-cooker time of year is crazy! IMHO I;d ask DH to delay meeting them until well after Christmas and New Year.

I actually think that it is important for your Dh to know how hard you find this. That the idea of someone abusing a child makes you angry. That the idea of someone hurting him makes you angry.

SpunkyMummy "if DH wants FIL to see his children you shouldn't say categorically no. DH does have the same rights you have."

Parents do not have 'rights' to expose their children to emotional harm, they have responsibilities. I do not think the OP can 'trust' her dh to make sensible decisions about their children at the moment. He is traumatized, and his father's wife is trying to negotiate some sort of meeting that could have quite bad results for the OP's dh. WHY would anyone want children in that mix!

My father was abusive in every way. He's also deeply religious and refuses to acknowledge what he did.

I agree not to leave children alone with him/them, also to base any decision to see him/them on whether fil acknowledges FULLY what he did, his responsibility for it, that it was wrong and the long term effects on your husband. My guess though is he will and has done none of this and that's what your husband is struggling with.

I no longer have contact with my father, a decision I have not regretted for one moment.

I also wrote that insisting on her and DH or an other adult (who isn't the wife of FIL) being present is reasonable.

I think she should definitely insist on that.

I'm not saying this is something I'd want to do. But it has to be their decision, not hers.

Nord I wonder, just as an aside, if you have heard of EMDR (Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing); this is for post traumatic stress disorder.

www.emdr.com/what-is-emdr/

This may be available on the NHS or in trial format.

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Post-traumatic-stress-disorder/Pages/Treatment.aspx

Can I just say that although i totally do not agree with the idea of a Christmas meeting for any of you, if you do go ahead please do take AcrossthePond's advice "... only in a place that you are able to leave (his house, restaurant, etc) quickly. This means that if you visit them, your family stay in a hotel room or you and the children do NOT go. If they are due to visit you, they must get a hotel room and any 'entertaining' is done other than in your home. You want a clear and swift exit with a place ready to go if things start to go south."

SpunkyMummy "I'm not saying this is something I'd want to do. But it has to be their decision, not hers."

Why?

Grand parents do not have rights to see their kids? in the normal run of life it is beneficial for kids to see their grandparents but if there is serious doubt about the benefits or even serious concerns about the detriment of such an action one parent cannot trump the other and say I insist on my children meeting the man who abused me. What a thought! Being blood related to someone doesn't change the fact the fact they abused a person, if anything it makes it potentially worse.

And who is their's' her dh or her dh and someone else?

I am honestly saddened by the apparent consensus on this thread that a person can't ever redeem themselves and will always be 'an abuser', even years after they have worked to better themselves.

The OP isn't obliged to like her FIL but I think here she comes close to making her DH's past about her and appropriating his right to be angry about his past. Unless her FIL seems to be a risk, and I can't see that he is, I think she needs to let her DH deal with his feelings and respect his right to a relationship with his dad. That doesn't involve clutching her pearls and refusing to see him herself. I would be deeply upset by such a reaction from my partner to things I have told him about my past.

However, I am happy to accept that I am in the minority here.

I agree with you Trifle, people can change and the victims of abusive people can choose for themselves whether or not to give the perpetrator a second chance. I think the issue here is that this man doesn't seem to have truly changed. He has now set his sights on op for not being of the correct religion. I think op is right to be sceptical and wary of this man and his motives because he and his wife are not welcoming her with open arms. Despite professing to have changed and found religion, it sounds as though he still has a bitter heart.

So what would I do? Acrossthepond has great advice. Neutral territory if possible rather than in the father's home. I think I would have a tendency to go along with my dh to support him. My children on full view at all times. Short, casual visit, perhaps a meal out but low key. Preferably not meeting on Christmas Day. Christmas Day should be a day of happy memories for all.

His father found God and has worked hard to become a better person apparently.

I am so suspicious of this and would want to know how FIL has demonstrated he has become a "better person" (bitter experience of Christianity). Does that mean he has had forgiveness from God and therefore all is well, done and dusted, and he expects everyone to accept that "change"?

If your FIL has truly understood how he behaved and the impact on your DH he would not be making this about seeking forgiveness or pushing for reconciliation. Wouldn't he want to know that your husband is ok, realising how traumatised he might be. Wouldn't helping his son be his priority, including giving him space if he needs it. Allowing his son to set the pace of their relationship, if any.

I'd be very wary about the Christmas meet up for all the reasons of the posts above. But Across gives good advice. It might be very helpful to your DH that you lay down some conditions that he is not strong enough to do.

This is such a tricky situation and I totally get your anger towards your FIL. I had an abusive father growing up (went nc when I was 14) and I know my DP gets a bit stably when he's even mentioned due to what I have told him. Men like that (people like that I should say) never change imo. You'd be doing the right thing to ensure your children never see him without your supervision but I think you neeed to go off of what your DH wants to do moving forward with regards to contact in general. Supporting your DH, as previous posters have said, doesn't necessarily mean you have to see this man but your children are your DHs too.

Italian EMDR is not necessarily successful in helping victims of childhood abuse, according to the author of 'The Body Keeps the Score ' which is where I read about it. We are moving and the book is packed but I am pretty sure that it is more effective for war veterans.

The whole issue of forgiveness and finding faith is complex. A person who has a history of abuse and has found faith will still have to live with the consequences of their actions.

I don't know the details of what happened to your DH as a child but I was physically abused from time to time by my father; some other stuff happened too that was difficult, and so we have a distant but largely cordial relationship now I'm an adult. I've made my peace with what happened and while I understand my husband's strong feelings about it, crucially he respects my decision to maintain contact with my father. Essentially this means going to see him once or twice a year, with my children and sometimes my husband, and the occasional phone call.

Equally I can understand how you feel - you love your husband and you're protective of him. But I hope you will take your lead from him, and support him in what he wants to do, especially as he now poses no risk to him or to his grandchildren. This isn't about you.

Larry EMDR helps all sorts of trauma, including childhood abuse.

OP - your feelings are valid. Your DP's feelings are valid. Chose where your boundaries are in relation to this man, let your DP chose his boundaries, and respectfully work around each other. That may mean DP going to see this man without you and the children, but that you don't try to persuade him not to go.

As a side note, my DH would go fucking nuts if I forgave a certain individual from my past - he has told me as much. His anger towards that individual over what they did to me felt so loving and protective. Maybe emphasise that part of it to him carefully, he may get less defensive.

trifle I have not said people cannot change. But you have no idea if he is a risk. What do you think it will do to a man who has been abused as a child to see the abuser interacting with the man's own children while the man"s own hurt is not yet resolves? Do you know? I Don't. So I would certainly wish to speak to a therapist before seeing that situation unfold before my eyes.

I started therapy earlier this year and stopped for school hols and found myself in the position Italian describes in a family visit and it wasnt nice.

Re therapy OP, I wonder if reliving all the memories is good for your DH. I have a therapist who thinks it can be re-traumatising to work systematically through severe abuse. We concentrate on the present/future and deal with the past where it becomes relevant. We have also worked to find ways to "put things away" so life can continue as it needs to between sessions. All a work in progress but might be helpful for your DH to consider with counsellor should he pick it up again.