WWYD? Dilemma

[LemonaidLime]

I'll try to keep this brief. I have a very difficult relationship with XH. Our DD's 5 & 8 have recently (the last year or so) started becoming very reluctant to go to visitation. They give several reasons for not wanting to go and the older they have got, the more vocal they are about this. They will scream and cry at him down the phone or beg to come home if they go. It's very hard for me to hear them say these things - I'm torn between guilty that I'm not listening to their (IMO justifiable) fears and concerns and wanting them to have a relationship with their father.

I have a job interview tomorrow and as its XH's scheduled weekend, I asked him if he'd collect them from school (really rare for him to do the school run) and keep them for the weekend. However, he rang today to speak to the girls and they started screaming and crying that they don't want to go to his this weekend. They really do get quite distressed at times when they realise they have to go. I've tried talking to them about their worries and encouraged them to go, explained I have an interview etc. At one point I convinced my eldest to go if I got him to agree to take them somewhere nice (she chose a particular playgym very easy to get to) as she often complains that all they do at his is sit stuck in the house with only the tv and computer or to the local cricket club so he can get drunk while the kids play with other kids whose parents are also there. I messaged him to ask him and he basically said no, she doesn't deserve it after crying about going to his (he hates that they refuse to go and gets quite angry with them about it. Recently he turned up at the house after one such phone call and he was screaming at them through the door to come out and go to his. He also blames me for them not wanting to go as at times I have listened to them rather than forcing them.

So to my dilemma: My mother collects my nephews from nearby schools so in theory could collect the girls and they are begging me to ask her to do this so they dont have to visit their dad. Do I ask her to do this and tell XH not to bother having them that night or do I allow XH to collect them and go ahead with scheduled contact? I'm really torn on the right thing to do. I really could do with the break as I'm quite ill with a chronic condition but it breaks my heart to think of them stuck at his and desperately wanting to come home because they're bored and frightened.

WWYD?

"There is no way I would send my kids to spend time with a man who takes them out and gets drunk, turns up and shouts through the door and who I know to be abusive and who I, as an adult woman, am afraid of!"

^THIS THIS THIS

the comments from jennypocket are pertinent but you need support in having conversations with your ex because he just wont listen to you.

you dds also need support in any conversations with ex to say what they want. and for the feedback and conversation about what is realistic. making ex into a disney dad who only does fun things isnt realistic either.

you need to be telling CAMHS again that

your dds need support if they are to have a future relationship with dad

that dd1 is currently expressing extreme thoughts and behaviors and you as a family (you and dds) need support with this

and any anger aggression shouting thru doors at you from ex - call police and report.

ps dont make a thing to CAMHS they are "bored" at his. boredom is irrelevant.. also dont emphasize that he takes them to cricket club where they play with other kids - that really does not sound bad at all does it?

tell them they are frightened and scared of his anger and shouting. .

I'd believe my kids every time. Especially when you can see the emotional distress it's causing them. If you don't start believing them and taking action to sort things now, they won't bother to tell you how they feel when they're teenagers as they'll have learnt not to count on you for support.

Although the school cannot prevent him from picking them up they also wouldn't force the children to leave with him. I was kind of in a similar situation to you. I had a meeting with the school and they agreed to call me if he came to pick up in the day. My kids would never leave with him, they are petrified of him. Funnily enough I'm still waiting for the court order 5 years on.

Thank you once again everybody. I'm reading all the replies and absorbing the advice. My mum is collecting the DC early and the school is aware. I am about to text him to let him know and say that for the time being, we should suspend contact until I've got get a CAHMS referral. Should I offer daytime contact on the proviso that he returns them and if he doesn't stop contact completely?

The truth is, I desperately want my DD's to have a good relationship with their father. It's just that I don't think he's capable at the moment to provide a suitable environment.

I'm not that bothered that he takes them to the cricket club (although the drinking concerns me - he actually drinks often at home according to the DC as well as smoking in the car and house whilst they're there) I mentioned it as this is one of the reasons they give for not wanting to go to his. I have relayed this and said perhaps if he took them to interesting places or did things with them that interest them, then they would feel more inclined to go (although I can see that this is encouraging Disney parenting which isn't ideal as a pp suggested). But of course I'm talking to a brick wall because their reluctance is nothing to do with him and is all my fault plus he doesn't see why he should reward them for defying his expectation that they go to his on HIS weekends. He often says things like 'it's MY contact' completely missing the point that it is meant to be for their benefit.

I think a huge issue is that they simply don't trust him. He makes promises he never keeps and my eldest is very black and white about things. So he promised her money for her birthday that he still hasn't given to her and she is angry with him months later. Of course this isn't enough reason to stop contact but it makes me question if this is mentioned as something concrete that's easy to talk about (rather than saying 'I'm frightened etc) or is really the justification she is using to not go. As PPs have mentioned though, their reaction is extreme and points to other things going on. He also shows favouritism towards our eldest, at one time he left with just out eldest to go on holiday leaving the youngest behind because she was getting upset about leaving me. He only ever asks to speak to the eldest on the phone too. They are getting older and are starting to notice. I do often wonder if my eldest's behaviour towards her sister is emulating what she witnesses from him. I can hear him speak through her 8 yo mouth .

This thread has spurred me on to fight for my DDs and in particular for my eldest to get the support she needs. I admit I have felt defeated before and given up because I have too much on my plate. Time to get tough I think.

I would contact your local safeguarding board and report your concerns, especially regarding his threats to collect them from school. Inform the school as well. They absolutely will take you seriously! The parental responsibility thing doesn't mean your ex can walk into school and drag them off.

hutch

'He only had us to score points of our Mum - to try and prove he was still 'involved''

This is exactly what I think is going on with him. He doesn't really want them, not in the same way that a loving and involved father does. He wants to show the world that he is a great dad and the reduction in the maintenance he doesn't actually pay me is a huge bonus. He goes through phases where he's not that bothered about them going, particularly the youngest, but after I approached cms several months ago, he's been even more insistent that they go to all their contact.

Thank you to everyone who has shared their personal stories. I'm so sorry anyone, particularly children, had to go through that. It's all really helping me to see that this is for the best, at least for the time being.

I wouldn't be offering daytime contact there are no guarantees he would return them at the right time, and the girls don't want to go. You said yourself they were asking to come home after being at his for only an hour.

Ok well your kids are too small to be heard by the court yet.

You need to find some kind of counselor for them. That in itself is bloody difficult. Then you need to get child services of some sort involved to sort out what's going on. I'm in France so it's different but not hugely. We had a social worker put in place by the court to do an enquiry. The result was pretty good and the kids got what they wanted which was the point.

At 8 & 9 my kids requested to be heard and were given a court awarded solicitor. They were ordered to have contact for 4 months in a visitors centre place. 2 hours every 2 weeks. After that we were given the possibility to find our own agreement. The girls chose to go no contact. Which is where we are now 2 years later.

PLEASE look at the Out of the Fog website. It's very helpful. Read Why Does he Do That by Lundy. Do the Freedom Program (I did it online.)

My kids are so much better behaviourally and health wise since they stopped going

"Should I offer daytime contact on the proviso that he returns them and if he doesn't stop contact completely? "

no. and no and no.

your dds will not suffer for having a few weeks off from seeing dad while you work it out. in fact better you stop and wait for them to start asking where is dad can I see him? THEN you facilitate some kind of contact.

contact with someone who shouts and is angry is harmful to them.

[if it was a teacher who was shouting at them or a childminder you would not send them right?]

just stop contact and say you are seeking support form CAMHS and family therapy referral

dont have any more conversations with him about this.

if you need to respond, say you will speak with him at a facilitated conversation with a therapist/mediator. (if you do get such a time allocated let me know i can give some tips of how not to and how to handle it...learned the hard way)

remember that he screamed at them thru the door. that is enough to stop contact.
remember that your daughter wants to kill herself if made to go that is enough to stop contact.
why give him one more chance? just dont. wait til it forced or until it is safe with a trained child therapist

I've just sent him this:

Please do not pick the girls up from school today. I am not saying that you shouldn't ever have the girls but they are really insistent that they don't want to go to yours and it is really concerning me that DD is threatening suicide in response to being told she has to go to yours. I am going to get her referred to CAHMS as she needs some kind of support. I'm going to look into family therapy so we can get to the bottom of what is going on. I understand this must be hard for you but the girls are the priority and I think a break for a couple of weeks would give everyone some space and time to think. Please work with me on this and not against me. I am in a difficult position but I must prioritise the children and I honestly think this is best for them until I can get DD the help she needs.

He is still calling non stop. Texting saying he just wants to talk, promising no arguments. Then saying he will pick them up if I don't answer. It's so difficult dealing with him. I'm going to ignore him for now and spend some time preparing for my interview. I will be back later. Thanks again everyone, it's really really appreciated.

You're obviously a good, kind and loving mum. You recognise that a relationship with their dad is important but you also recognise that this is hurting them. Your eldest is communicating very clearly that she is being harmed by his behaviour. It's ok to be questioning things because emotional abuse is hard to understand and quantify when you're there. However, your daughters are being damaged by it and this is enough to stop contact.

Can you afford any private counselling/support?

They are unsafe with him. He is frightening, verbally abusive, flips between neglectful drunken parenting and then full on screaming, sending them to their rooms when they speak, smokes in the car. They know he is harmful.

You must listen to your dc. They aren't telling tales. They are asking you to protect them and they are frightened.

Nspcc might offer advice. You can get it anon from them too, via email or phone call. Put in all info you have from dc and what you have seen about how he treats them.

If a child feels they can't trust either you or him to keep them safe then they will have mental health issues.

Don't give him any more information. Nothing about what the girls have said. You'll put them at risk even more. He'll build a case to deny/explain it all away. better he is put on the spot later on by a professional. Don't reply/exxplain annything to him

....and don't deal directly with him at all ever. Get a solicitor and correspond through them alone. He's not someone you can deal with effectively. Record all his calls and rants if you can.

Just to add that you are pissing into the wind hoping he's going to be reasonable. View him as someone who is unable to be reasonable, that it isn't a choice he makes. That he knows no other way. It's very freeing to think that way.

Good message.
Don't say anything further

If you need to say anything just repeat from yr message "I am going to look into family therapy. You should hear from them
"

They will want to contact both parents and you might be asked to meet jontly with them
Just so you prepared
But you do nt need to say anything g more right now

If he comes to the house blustering do not open door . do call.police

To answer your question, OP: it's much, much better not to have a relationship with a parent than to have a relationship with an abusive parent (even more so when you are a minor and forced to have it). There is absolutely no doubt about it.