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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that 16% pay inequality between the sexes isn't necessarily a problem....

252 replies

Bananabread123 · 10/11/2016 23:15

.... so long as:

  1. men and women are paid equivalent amounts where there is parity of responsibility, experience and competence

  2. affordable childcare is available

  3. men and women are equally able to take career breaks for the purpose of child rearing, and that cultural barriers inhibiting this are removed

  4. there is equality of access to money and spending decisions for women in households where the man is the main breadwinner (and vice versa)

  5. Barriers that prevent or dissuade women from working in high paid professions are removed.

Why do I say this?... because in my experience women, on average, tend to want to lead on child rearing, and that this is a biological tendency that exists over and above any cultural norms. Clearly it will be different for every couple, but I'm talking about norms here. Not all, but many women want to take time off after their babies. And many (not all) women embrace the flexibility of part time work when children are young. And if that being the case, they will have less experience than their male counterparts, and it follows they should expect to be paid less on average.

OP posts:
drwitch · 11/11/2016 13:58

Op so here is where I disagree with you - I think women take do more of the caring, housework and childrearing not because it is our choice but because a) the return to market work is lower than it should be because of discrimination and b) our weaker access to the market gives us less bargaining power within the household. Yes the penalty for mothers is thus partly a consequence of choices we make but also a prime cause of them.
by the way amongst those 40 or below more women have degrees - thus the "fair" average gap should be negative !

5to2 · 11/11/2016 16:34

So...people should get paid by time spent in a job rather than by how good they are at doing the job?

Employer's rarely take a lockstep approach to pay rises these days.

Bananabread123 · 11/11/2016 16:54

drwitch

I agree with you to an extent. There are barriers to mums getting back to work and these need addressing. Having said that, i believe there remain a lots of SAHMs out there who are happy to be what they are and wouldn't have it any other way.

OP posts:
Bananabread123 · 11/11/2016 16:55

So...people should get paid by time spent in a job rather than by how good they are at doing the job

No, people should be paid based on their competence and ability.... but experience helps to build competence and ability in most jobs.

OP posts:
IAmAmy · 11/11/2016 17:03

There would probably be a lot of SAHDs out there who would be much happier and not want things any other way were it not for a patriarchal society which still expects women to put their careers on hold/give them up entirely upon having children and men to be breadwinners.

Boundaries · 11/11/2016 17:17

OP, one of the reasons, I believe, for the pay gap is that there are far more men in senior leader /CEO type roles and far more women in low paid "caring" type roles. In traditionally "female" jobs such as nursing and teaching, there are still more men running the show.

How does that fit with your rather narrow view of why there is a gap?

witsender · 11/11/2016 17:20

You are genuinely not very bright.

2 people do the same job, on grade 5. Grade 5 pays 35k. One person has had 10 yrs off, one hasn't. Should they both get £35k?

Of course. Regardless of time off, they are doing the same job. If Person A and person B start out at the same point, but person A doesn't have kids a d take 10 yrs out and is on grade 8 by the time that person B comes back, if person B applies for and gets a job at grade 8 then they should get grade 8 pay.

TheTantrumCometh · 11/11/2016 17:23

But then women often take the lead in childcare purely because it's makes the most financial sense because they're routinely paid less.

I would have relished the chance to work after DD was born and DH really wanted to be a SAHP but we just could not do it financially.

TheTantrumCometh · 11/11/2016 17:24

Witsender has explained it wonderfully

IAmAmy · 11/11/2016 17:25

On another note, I'm very glad my mum works. I'm not sure I'd be as ambitious as I am and determined to have a good career if she didn't. My aunt is a SAHM and my cousins have quite different views to me on gender roles shall we say.

IAmAmy · 11/11/2016 17:29

Actually that wasn't really on topic and isn't a very thoughtful thing to say. People are stay at home parents for all sorts of reasons, I just wish we could shift from a patriarchal culture where it's so often expected of the mother to take on that role (not only within the family but also employers valuing men more than women, I've read of promotions being offered to men over women as "he's got a family to support/could have a family to support" etc).

Datun · 11/11/2016 17:42

There is also the issue of how jobs are valued depending upon which sex is doing them. (A recent thread on here).

When teaching was male dominated, it was considered one of the professiona (like a lawyer, doctor) and it was paid well. Over the last five or six decades it has become a female dominated area - is valued less and paid less.

In a supermarket for instance the checkout person (often female), who has to learn the technology, is generally paid less than the male shelf stacker, despite it being intellectually easier, due to his superior strength.

I can't recall which country this was in, but in the fishing industry, when the men were making the nets and the women were doing the fishing, the net making was considered a prized skill and paid more. Gradually as that switched and the women made the nets and the men did the fishing, the fishing was paid more. As soon as the job is done predominantly by a man, it has a higher value.

Typing was originally done by men, and paid accordingly, as it was considered a job which required stamina. As soon as women dominated, it became a lesser job. The same with computer coding. Originally it was done by women, as it was considered a job which required dexterity and an attention to detail. As soon as men started to dominate the pay went up, it became valued more.

I'll try and find the thread with all the links.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 11/11/2016 17:53

How do you address the other causes of inequality e.g. the perception that women aren't ambitious, the fact that behaviours labelled as assertive in men are labelled as agressive in women, that women who ask for a payrise are regarded less favourably than men.

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/nov/19/women-start-out-as-ambitious-as-men-but-it-erodes-over-time-says-researcher

www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/news/2016/9/new_study_suggests_women_do_ask_for_pay_rises_but_dont_get_them/

www.theguardian.com/business/economics-blog/2013/dec/06/gender-equality-women-stereotypes-stop-progress

The picture is so much more complex than just child rearing.

Bananabread123 · 11/11/2016 17:56

if person B applies for and gets a job at grade 8 then they should get grade 8 pay.

Of course if they apply for and get a grade 8 job when they return they should get grade 8 pay.... however, after 10 years off its unrealistic to think they'd get such a promotion... ridiculous even.

In my line of work if I left my teaching job and had 10 years as a sahm, how could I possibly reasonably to expect to come back after 10 years out and go straight into, say, a head's job. Confused.

OP posts:
Boundaries · 11/11/2016 18:06

OP the pay gap is not just down to women having time off.

That is one element.

Bananabread123 · 11/11/2016 18:11

Chaz / Datun

Really good articles... i totally agree there is a culture that needs to change.

OP posts:
Bananabread123 · 11/11/2016 18:12

OP the pay gap is not just down to women having time off.

Totally agree! There are a whole heap of things that need to change before pay is fair.

OP posts:
Boundaries · 11/11/2016 18:17

I don't understand your point then, OP

Pay will be fair when the average pay of men and women is equal. Easy.

Headofthehive55 · 11/11/2016 18:31

The pay gap looks at people doing the same job. I was rejected at my last interview as I have young children, and was told it's not your time. You have young children. You wouldn't getaway with saying that to a man. Therefore my pay is less directly because I have children and I'm a woman.

It's presumed that I'm not as interested in a career, why? I've corrected people on lots of occasions as people have said that directly to my face! It matters. As a woman, slightly older, I feel invisible in the workplace.

Headofthehive55 · 11/11/2016 18:36

banana have ten years off, you end up being a TA, using your skills just the same, yet the male NQT will get paid more than you yet get supported by you.

That's how it works. Sadly.

HermioneWeasley · 11/11/2016 18:36

AIBU to think that if my aunt had bollocks she'd be my uncle?

Your "ifs" are ridiculous

happypoobum · 11/11/2016 18:39
Biscuit
Datun · 11/11/2016 19:25

And imo one of the lowliest paid jobs which is female dominated - carers, is one of the most important, and should be remunerated accordingly.

I can't think of an equal gender specific job which pays the same - construction work? Janitor? Nah.

DoinItFine · 11/11/2016 20:03

Having said that, i believe there remain a lots of SAHMs out there who are happy to be what they are and wouldn't have it any other way.

Your belief in the bleeding obvious doesn't justify your sexism.

You want to justify the pay by using the usual excuses trotted out for exploiting women's labour.

Stop pretending you are anything but a 1980s style sexist.